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Travel Forum / Travel Types / Air Travel / December 2007Putting Air Travel Complaints in Context
December 16, 2007 A Context for Those Complaints By Patrick Smith After five-plus years of fielding air travel questions from the general public, I've pretty much heard it all. Certain subjects I expected to be popular -- questions about the use of cell phones during flight, for instance -- and I continue to be amazed at the number of fliers petrified by turbulence. But more than anything else, I have learned to never, ever underestimate how much people simply hate to fly. http://jetlagged.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/a-context-for-those-complaints/ind ex.html?ref=opinion > December 16, 2007 > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > http://jetlagged.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/a-context-for-those-com... Good article. People need to remember: you get what you pay for. If you bitch and moan about long check-in lines, if you don't like the rude service and inconvenience, no meals and having to change planes, then either book something non-stop and in first class-- or don't f.cking fly. > > December 16, 2007 > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > inconvenience, no meals and having to change planes, then either book > something non-stop and in first class-- or don't f.cking fly. Wrong way around: if flying with an LCC enables you to avoid taking 2 flights then it is worth putting up with longer check-in, no in flight meals, the scrum to get on board etc. I cannot imagine taking ANY connecting flight with an LCC as they typically don't have the network and are not members of larger cartels (sorry, 'alliances'). > > December 16, 2007 > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > inconvenience, no meals and having to change planes, then either book > something non-stop and in first class-- or don't f.cking fly. My thoughts exactly, but here's the problem the way *I* see it. The occasional, and Holiday fliers are the worst for complaints. They fly once or twice a year, an when they return a year later, everything has changed. The frequent fliers see the system deteriorate slowly every week, and make the necessary adjustments. Sure, they complain at times too, but not as often. I had a woman ask me just last week how I got my lighter through security. Holidays are the worst. I'm heading back out on Dec. 26th, and not looking forward to it. >The frequent fliers see the system deteriorate slowly every week, and >make the necessary adjustments. Sure, they complain at times too, but >not as often. Or it's the frog in the water. The infrequent flier feels the hot water and is unhappy. The frequent flier just slowly becomes accustomed to it. :>On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:38:34 -0800 (PST), Jim Davis :><sky.dancer1@yahoo.com> wrote: :>>The frequent fliers see the system deteriorate slowly every week, and :>>make the necessary adjustments. Sure, they complain at times too, but :>>not as often. :>Or it's the frog in the water. The infrequent flier feels the hot :>water and is unhappy. The frequent flier just slowly becomes :>accustomed to it. The more frequent fliers tend to get less of the hassles.  SignatureBinyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com> http://www.dissensoftware.com Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me, you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain. I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems, especially those from irresponsible companies. On Dec 24, 3:09 am, Binyamin Dissen <postin...@dissensoftware.com> wrote: > :>On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:38:34 -0800 (PST), Jim Davis > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > The more frequent fliers tend to get less of the hassles. I would say that's partially true. I think that most holiday travelers and newbies bring on many of their own problems. Most frequent fliers know what their limitations are, and what shortcuts they can get away with. > -- > Binyamin Dissen <bdis...@dissensoftware.com>http://www.dissensoftware.com [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems, > especially those from irresponsible companies. > > > December 16, 2007 > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > inconvenience, no meals and having to change planes, then either book > > something non-stop and in first class-- or don't f.cking fly. Absolutely true. But don't expect that to happen. We have become a nation of people that expect something for nothing and will whine to high heaven until we get it. I've had half a dozen flights so far in December, several international. Between the class of service and my gold FF card, I've been able to avoid the problems that the "cheap at any cost" people complain about. Yes, you get what you pay for. > My thoughts exactly, but here's the problem the way *I* see it. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > not as often. I had a woman ask me just last week how I got my > lighter through security. Security has become a joke. When my wife and I went through SFO security they stopped her because she had a jar of lotion in her carry on. She'd forgotten. They decided it was small enough and let her through. I then recalled that I had left an amenity kit from Singapore Air in my carry on. Shaving cream, tooth paste, cologne, etc. They didn't see any of it even though it was larger than my wife's jar of lotion. > Holidays are the worst. I'm heading back out on Dec. 26th, and not > looking forward to it. I flew from Utah (ski country) to SFO 2 days before Christmas. Full plane. But the lines at SLC weren't bad, even for the non-premium fliers. The news had been telling people it would be chaos so people came to the airport early. Amazing how allowing yourself extra time reduces problems and stress. > Security has become a joke. When my wife and I went through SFO > security they stopped her because she had a jar of lotion in her carry > on. She'd forgotten. KY Jelly ? Kind of like don't leave Pattaya w/o it. Hope you can make it back to Thailand soon Tee Cho Waaaa ;-) >I've had half a dozen flights so far in December, several >international. Between the class of service and my gold FF card, I've >been able to avoid the problems that the "cheap at any cost" people >complain about. I log over 100K miles a year, most of them in business/first class, all of them as a highest-level FF, and I've experienced plenty of: - Interminable delays - Canceled flights, often as a side effect of weather events hundreds of miles away - Hours-long takeoff delays due to airport and air route traffic jams - Diversions to random airports, where the entire airplane is held hostage for hours I don't complain because it's pointless. Instead, I try to choose airlines - like Southwest - that provide superior service and whose routes are less prone to megahub delays. Unfortunately, they don't fly internationally. >Yes, you get what you pay for. Only if you fly private. If you squander thousands on a business-class ticket on a commercial airline, you are still subject to the same delays, cancellations, and chaos as the backpacker in the last row of steerage. >The news had been telling people it would be chaos so people >came to the airport early. Amazing how allowing yourself extra time >reduces problems and stress. On every plane I've been on, the last person to check in took off at exactly the same time as the moron who dragged himself to the airport two hours in advance. Something for you to ponder as you ``reduce stress'' by drinking yourself into stupor in some dismal airport lounge :) > In article <36b658e9-ed5b-4113-a5ef-8061d2df7...@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I log over 100K miles a year, most of them in business/first class, > all of them as a highest-level FF, and I've experienced plenty of: (I log around 150k - so that's similar - and have for about 20 years) > - Interminable delays Haven't had a delay more than an hour except in Bangladesh. > - Canceled flights, often as a side effect of weather events > hundreds of miles away Haven't had a cancelled flight in over a decade. And the only ones I've *ever* had were Delta (during a hurricane in Atlanta so that's understandable) and Air France/UTA during one of there many random strikes. > - Hours-long takeoff delays due to airport and air route traffic jams Never. > - Diversions to random airports, where the entire airplane is > held hostage for hours Once, AF diverted from Paris to Lyons. > I don't complain because it's pointless. Instead, I try to choose > airlines - like Southwest - that provide superior service and whose [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > delays, cancellations, and chaos as the backpacker in the last row > of steerage. But those system-wide problems are relatively rare. Most of the passenger complaints are around service, seat comfort, etc. that the premium passengers don't have problems with. > >The news had been telling people it would be chaos so people > >came to the airport early. Amazing how allowing yourself extra time [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ``reduce stress'' by drinking yourself into stupor in some dismal > airport lounge :) I don't drink. But by arriving early, neither do I get stressed in the security line when there are 50 people ahead of me and my flight is leaving in 20 minutes. And I have seen many examples where the "last person to check in" didn't make through security and took the next flight. >Haven't had a delay more than an hour except in Bangladesh. I encounter substantial delays on almost 1/4 of my flights, and looking at the on-time arrival statistics, my experience is typical. Yours isn't. >Haven't had a cancelled flight in over a decade. I run into canceled flights (especially on commuter / express operations) at least twice a year. >>Hours-long takeoff delays due to airport and air route traffic jams > >Never. Maybe it's not busy in Bangladesh, but at an airport like EWR (and avoiding EWR is not an option, not for those of us who have to travel to New York), an hour-long takeoff wait is a routine occurrence. >Once, AF diverted from Paris to Lyons. Try flying to a megahub like DFW when it gets hit by bad weather. >But those system-wide problems are relatively rare. Most of the >passenger complaints are around service, seat comfort, etc. I hardly ever hear complaints about service and seat comfort (except in coach on European airlines, where both service and comfort are worse than atrocious). What people do complain about is endless delays, which affect everybody equally - in economy or in business. >I don't drink. But by arriving early, neither do I get stressed in the >security line when there are 50 people ahead of me and my flight is >leaving in 20 minutes. Use the elite line :) >And I have seen many examples where the "last person to check in" >didn't make through security and took the next flight. In years of 100K-miles-per-year flying, I was the last person on board dozens of times. I only missed one flight, and it wasn't a big deal: I just caught the next flight out. The usual nonsense advice to come to the airport 2 hours in advance has nothing to do with security lines (the only time I recall spending more than 20 minutes at a security checkpoint was in London after the bomb scare), but all to do with the desire of airport shops for a captive audience. I don't care for airport shops, airport lounges, or airport eateries. Ignoring this advice saved me hundreds of hours over the years to spend with my family or doing productive work in my office. :>In article <eb24f6b1-4e31-45f0-a43e-ec4a57c7de38@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, :>Tchiowa <tchiowa2@hotmail.com> wrote: :>>Haven't had a delay more than an hour except in Bangladesh. :> I encounter substantial delays on almost 1/4 of my flights, and :> looking at the on-time arrival statistics, my experience is typical. :> Yours isn't. I also get lots of delays. But Tchiowa's attitude is a bit different as he plans to waste lots of time in the airport and to charge for it. So his view might be slightly colored. :>>Haven't had a cancelled flight in over a decade. :> I run into canceled flights (especially on commuter / express :> operations) at least twice a year. Is there much of a difference between a flight delayed past the time of the next flight or a cancelled flight? :>>>Hours-long takeoff delays due to airport and air route traffic jams :>>Never. :> Maybe it's not busy in Bangladesh, but at an airport like EWR (and :> avoiding EWR is not an option, not for those of us who have to travel :> to New York), an hour-long takeoff wait is a routine occurrence. Ditto. Podunk airports would tend to have less delays. :>>Once, AF diverted from Paris to Lyons. :> Try flying to a megahub like DFW when it gets hit by bad weather. :>>But those system-wide problems are relatively rare. Most of the :>>passenger complaints are around service, seat comfort, etc. :> I hardly ever hear complaints about service and seat comfort (except in :> coach on European airlines, where both service and comfort are worse :> than atrocious). What people do complain about is endless delays, :> which affect everybody equally - in economy or in business. No, there are some that complain about service. :>>I don't drink. But by arriving early, neither do I get stressed in the :>>security line when there are 50 people ahead of me and my flight is :>>leaving in 20 minutes. :> Use the elite line :) :>>And I have seen many examples where the "last person to check in" :>>didn't make through security and took the next flight. :> In years of 100K-miles-per-year flying, I was the last person on board :> dozens of times. I only missed one flight, and it wasn't a big deal: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :> checkpoint was in London after the bomb scare), but all to do with :> the desire of airport shops for a captive audience. :> I don't care for airport shops, airport lounges, or airport eateries. :> Ignoring this advice saved me hundreds of hours over the years to :> spend with my family or doing productive work in my office. Perhaps if you planned on charging your clients to arrive three hours early, as Tchiowa does, you would see things differently. I cannot, in good conscience, charge clients for such time. SignatureBinyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com> http://www.dissensoftware.com Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me, you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain. I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems, especially those from irresponsible companies. >Is there much of a difference between a flight delayed past the time of the >next flight or a cancelled flight? That all depends... If the combined number of passengers is less then the number of seats on the second flight, no. However, if that combined number of passengers is larger then the number of seats on the second flight, then yes, there is a noticeable difference between the two situations. >>Is there much of a difference between a flight delayed past the time of the >>next flight or a cancelled flight? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of seats on the second flight, then yes, there is a noticeable > difference between the two situations. I had one situation when I flew WN from SJC to BUR. I had a meeting at a studio, and then plan to spend some time in the LA area, eventually flying out of SNA. I was traveling with a companion on a "Friends Fly Free (Buy 1 Get 1) Fare". All LA airports were fogged in and, after circling for awhile, we flew back to SJC in time for the next scheduled flight of the same plane, for SJC-BUR. Everyone was offered either a later flight, or compensation of $200 plus the cost of the value of the segment, if they would give up their seat. Optionally, they could stay on the flight. Since we were going to be too late for the event we had planned to attend, we chose to fly to LAX 45 minutes later. Wouldn't it be nice if we all had a choice? Family trying to get across the country to visit for holidays? Sure, drive. That's your choice. How about a choice between corporations that give a damn about their customers experiences and those that don't? Unfortunately all airlines are bad, but some are worse than others. United Air thinks Boise is a third world country. They just canceled our son's flight after he had already spent twelve hours from NY to Chicago. They give him the option of canceling his entire vacation and forfeiting money to get back to NY, or sitting in the airport for two more days without food or accommodations provided. There are no effective consumer protection laws because corporate culture and our system of government are corrupt and politicians are accepting contributions from airline lobbies. Every experience we have ever had with United has been unpleasant. Delayed and canceled flights, lost luggage, customer support staff in Mexico City or Pakistan with no knowledge of anything, you name it. United Airlines is the one to avoid at all costs. Of course we hate to fly. I would rather drive anywhere. > Wouldn't it be nice if we all had a choice? Family trying to get > across the country to visit for holidays? Sure, drive. That's your [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > United Airlines is the one to avoid at all costs. Of course we hate to > fly. I would rather drive anywhere. > Wouldn't it be nice if we all had a choice? Family trying to get > across the country to visit for holidays? Sure, drive. That's your [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > corrupt and politicians are accepting contributions from airline > lobbies. I believe his first mistake was connecting through ORD. The weather is terrible in the winter, causing delays and cancellations. My luggage is always delayed through ORD no matter what airline I use. Sounds like United gave him a raw deal too, but you're not complete with the details. > Every experience we have ever had with United has been unpleasant. > Delayed and canceled flights, lost luggage, customer support staff in > Mexico City or Pakistan with no knowledge of anything, you name it. > United Airlines is the one to avoid at all costs. Of course we hate to > fly. I would rather drive anywhere. Everyone has trouble with one airline or another. My inferior airline is US Air. It's a disaster whenever I fly with them. United has been so-so, but not high on my list. Jim Davis <sky.dancer1@yahoo.com> wrote in news:41918f92-6681-4d72-893a-c07bec4338dc@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.co m: > Everyone has trouble with one airline or another. My inferior > airline is US Air. It's a disaster whenever I fly with them. > United has been so-so, but not high on my list. My experience with United was a cross-country flight to the east coast. I was taking my infant son to stay with the grandparents while I was on an extended business trip. Mid-flight, I asked the stewardess if there was hot water or some way I could heat his bottle and was curtly told "no". There were only 5 of us in the First Class Cabin. United isn't even on my list; Amtrak is a better choice. -- > Jim Davis <sky.danc...@yahoo.com> wrote innews:41918f92-6681-4d72-893a-c07bec4338dc@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.co > m: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > There were only 5 of us in the First Class Cabin. United isn't even > on my list; Amtrak is a better choice. United is pathetic, IMHO. Delta is worse. Continental should be ashamed of its own existence. But like JIm said, we've all had our problems with one airline or another. I won't fly *any* US airline internationally. > United is pathetic, IMHO. Delta is worse. Continental should be > ashamed of its own existence. But like JIm said, we've all had our > problems with one airline or another. I won't fly *any* US airline > internationally. I agree. On our trip back from Australia (after a 4 day stopover in Fiji) on Air Pacific, breakfast consisted of fish and fresh fruit. I was a bit surprised and found it to be unusual for a breakfast but delicious. -- >United is pathetic, IMHO. Delta is worse. Continental should be >ashamed of its own existence. Still sore that Continental's BusinessFirst is routinely rated better than Singapore's business class? Get over it :) >I won't fly *any* US airline internationally. If only it were so easy. Most of my international flying, for example, is between Europe and the US, where on most routes the choice is between a US airline and a European carrier. US airlines are paragons of service and efficiency in comparison to such outfits as BA, AF, KL and AZ. > In article <9309e7e7-008f-44f2-adad-e04c7dd6b...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Still sore that Continental's BusinessFirst is routinely rated better > than Singapore's business class? Get over it :) ???? I've flown both. There is absolutely no comparison. Continental is not in the same league as SQ. SQ (and Cathay) are routinely ranked as #1 or #2 in both business and first class by Conde Nast and most other passenger surveys. > >I won't fly *any* US airline internationally. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of service and efficiency in comparison to such outfits as BA, AF, > KL and AZ. AF and KL I agree with you. But BA is substantially better, as is Lufthansa. >>Still sore that Continental's BusinessFirst is routinely rated better >>than Singapore's business class? =A0Get over it :) > >I've flown both. There is absolutely no comparison. I doubt very much that you've flown Continental's BusinessFirst (maybe their domestic first class, which is a different product entirely), but look up OAG Airline of the Year awards, where BusinessFirst and Virgin's Upper Class routinely place above SQ in the international business class category. >SQ (and Cathay) are routinely ranked as #1 >or #2 in both business and first class by Conde Nast and most other >passenger surveys. Most of these surveys are bullshit. I saw Qatar Airways ranked as a ``5-star airline'' by some survey. The only other 5-star airline was Cathay. I haven't flown Cathay, but in my experience Qatar is worse than any US airline (but better than any European carrier, natcherly). >>US airlines are paragons >>of service and efficiency in comparison to such outfits as BA, AF, >>KL and AZ. > >AF and KL I agree with you. But BA is substantially better, as is >Lufthansa. BA is to be avoided. My recent experience with BA (flying business class, too): 5-hour delay in Heathrow, cabin heated up to a sauna-like temperature, and then, after arriving to JFK at 2 in the morning, learning that my baggage has been lost. shmat@xenon.Stanford.EDU (VS) said: > BA is to be avoided. My recent experience with BA (flying business > class, too): 5-hour delay in Heathrow, cabin heated up to a sauna-like > temperature, and then, after arriving to JFK at 2 in the morning, > learning that my baggage has been lost. The cause of the delay? Mechanical? Weather? Slots? They lost your baggage? *Every* airline in the world loses baggage. Some more than others, but a sample of one is hardly sufficient to avoid an airline. Really, you've been in this group long enough to know that. You've probably said the same thing to others. SignatureCraig http://www.wazu.jp/ 1,239 Unicode fonts for 82 written language groups: Price your own web plan: http://www.wazu.jp/hosting/ >>BA is to be avoided. My recent experience with BA (flying business >>class, too): 5-hour delay in Heathrow, cabin heated up to a sauna-like >>temperature, and then, after arriving to JFK at 2 in the morning, >>learning that my baggage has been lost. > >The cause of the delay? Mechanical? Weather? Slots? Mechanical. Or so they told us. >They lost your baggage? *Every* airline in the world loses baggage. >Some more than others, but a sample of one is hardly sufficient to >avoid an airline. Tell this to ``Tchiowa,'' who avoids Continental on the basis of a single domestic flight where they would not let him into a lounge or something. He even seems to have opinions about Continental's BusinessFirst, which he has never seen. >Really, you've been in this group long enough 13 years and counting :) |
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