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Travel Forum / Destinations / Asia / March 2004Why is every sign in Thailand wrong with regard to 12a.m and 12p.m.
Todays Bangkokpost headline reminded me to ask about this.... because the headline talks about the "12pm" bar closings. I've NEVER seen it written correctly in thailand.. I just realized that Thailand has probably has different rules about this....so maybe its not really an 'ERROR"...just different rules. So, signs will say "open for breakfast 9am to 12pm", or "this movie theatre is open 9pm to 12pm"....etc etc.... > Todays Bangkokpost > headline reminded me to ask about this.... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > So, signs will say "open for breakfast 9am to 12pm" What's wrong with that? (I don't get your point.) cheers, Henry > > Todays Bangkokpost > > headline reminded me to ask about this.... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > What's wrong with that? (I don't get your point.) Neither am I convinced that he has it right. However, one shouldn't use 12am/12pm. There are several ways to put it right. One is to use 24 hour clock or expressions noon and midnight. May 24, 1994 (Prepared by NIST's Time and Frequency Division, Boulder, Colo.) Additional Q&A on Time ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Time Questions and Answers from NIST Are noon and midnight 12 a.m. or 12 p.m.? This is perhaps the trickiest time question of them all. The best answer is that the terms 12 a.m. and 12 p.m. cause confusion and should not be used. To illustrate this, consider that "a.m." and "p.m." are abbreviations for "ante meridiem" and "post meridiem." They mean "before noon" and "after noon," respectively. Of course, noon is neither before nor after noon; it is simply noon. Therefore, neither the "a.m." nor "p.m." designation is correct. On the other hand, midnight is both 12 hours before noon and 12 hours after noon. Therefore, either 12 a.m. or 12 p.m. could work as a designation for midnight, but both would be ambiguous. To get around the problem, the terms 12 noon and 12 midnight should be used instead of 12 a.m. and 12 p.m. For example, a bank might be open on Saturday from 8 a.m. to noon. Or, a grocery store might be open daily until midnight. If you are making schedules, times such as 12:01 a.m. (one minute after midnight), or 11:59 p.m. (one minute before midnight) also can eliminate ambiguity. This method is used by the railroads and airlines. All I know is that in American, after 11:59 pm it is 12:00 AM, and after 11:59 am, it is 12:00 pm. That is the standard that everyone in America uses. I didn't realize it was different in the European (or whatever the non-US countries the above responders are in). >> > Todays Bangkokpost >> > headline reminded me to ask about this.... [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >after midnight), or 11:59 p.m. (one minute before midnight) also can >eliminate ambiguity. This method is used by the railroads and airlines. > All I know is that in American, after 11:59 pm it is 12:00 AM, and after > 11:59 am, it is 12:00 pm. That is the standard that everyone in America > uses. I didn't realize it was different in the European (or whatever the > non-US countries the above responders are in). Perhaps you did read the text of the National Institute of Standards and Technology? The body IS American. It doesn't suggest that the notation above is "the standard that everybody uses in America (US)". > >> > Todays Bangkokpost > >> > headline reminded me to ask about this.... [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > >after midnight), or 11:59 p.m. (one minute before midnight) also can > >eliminate ambiguity. This method is used by the railroads and airlines. Perhaps if you read NIST again you will see that it is making a RECOMMENDATION. It is saying what SHOULD be done. And I agree with them. Not what IS done. Unfortunately, it is NOT done in America. (and of course hardly anyone in america would know anything about what NIST says anyway) Let me put it this way: Of course most people use the words noon and midnight in america, and of course I do. And there are some people in American who do not use either a.m. or p.m. when using the 12:00 hour, and of course they are technically correct.. But of those who do use a.m. or p.m. in conjunction with the 12:00 hour (and this is the vast majority of americans--people and businesses and institutions)--it is always noon - 12pm, and midnight = 12am. That's the widespread CONVENTION here. And it is the opposite in thailand. But I did learn something in this thread...I understand now neither one is technically right. It's just odd that the conventions are totally different. >> All I know is that in American, after 11:59 pm it is 12:00 AM, and after >> 11:59 am, it is 12:00 pm. That is the standard that everyone in America [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] >> >after midnight), or 11:59 p.m. (one minute before midnight) also can >> >eliminate ambiguity. This method is used by the railroads and airlines. > Perhaps if you read NIST again you will see that it is making a > RECOMMENDATION. It is saying what SHOULD be done. > And I agree with them. > Not what IS done. Unfortunately, It very clearly stands there that 12 am and 12 pm BOTH refer to midnight. > All I know is that in American, after 11:59 pm it is 12:00 AM, and after > 11:59 am, it is 12:00 pm. That is the standard that everyone in America > uses. No it's not. That may be the standard that you use, but it is not the standard that "everyone in America uses". >> All I know is that in American, after 11:59 pm it is 12:00 AM, and after >> 11:59 am, it is 12:00 pm. That is the standard that everyone in America >> uses. > >No it's not. That may be the standard that you use, but it is not the >standard that "everyone in America uses". It sure is. > >No it's not. That may be the standard that you use, but it is not the > >standard that "everyone in America uses". > > It sure is. Well, since I am (a) in America and (b) not a user of your supposed "standard," I'd have to conclude that you're wrong. Bob M. > All I know is that in American, after 11:59 pm it is 12:00 AM, and after > 11:59 am, it is 12:00 pm. That is the standard that everyone in America > uses. I didn't realize it was different in the European (or whatever the > non-US countries the above responders are in). Erm...there ARE NO 'above responders', you top-posting AOL nitwit. cheers, Henry > >> > Todays Bangkokpost > >> > headline reminded me to ask about this.... [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > >after midnight), or 11:59 p.m. (one minute before midnight) also can > >eliminate ambiguity. This method is used by the railroads and airlines. > All I know is that in American, after 11:59 pm it is 12:00 AM, and after > 11:59 am, it is 12:00 pm. That is the standard that everyone in America > uses. I didn't realize it was different in the European (or whatever the > non-US countries the above responders are in). Then, it is very likely the Thais have picked it up from the Americans, as they have picked up a lot of other things: e.g., the love of pickup trucks and American door handles. To me it seems somewhat illogical as the meridian is at noon. Before noon, it is ante-meridian, i.e., AM after noon is post-meridian i.e., PM, so to me it would be more logical to call midnight 12 PM as it is twelve hours past noon. Beyond, e.g., one minute past 12 PM, becomes 0.01 AM. Etc. Per http://lowdin.nu > Then, it is very likely the Thais have picked it up from the Americans, as > they have picked up a lot of other things: e.g., the love of pickup trucks > and American door handles. To me it seems somewhat illogical as the meridian > is at noon. Before noon, it is ante-meridian, i.e., AM after noon is > post-meridian i.e., PM, so to me it would be more logical to call midnight > 12 PM as it is twelve hours past noon. It's also twelve hours before noon. The logical thing to do is to abandon the ridiculous 12-hour calendar. miguel  SignatureHundreds of travel photos from around the world: http://travel.u.nu/ Miguel, your an American. So how about telling all these non-believers that in America, the custom pretty much everywhere is to say that noon is 12pm and midnight is 12 a.m. (unless there are a few people or institutions that do not use a.m. or p.m. at all). But no institution (i.e., library, bank, business, etc etc. etc. .) would use 12am for noon and 12pm for midnight. (unless of course there are immigrant communities from places like thailand that wish to use the custom they are used to in the home country). I just find it interesting that in thailand (and probably other countries that i'm not familiar with) it's the opposite--I thought something like a.m./p.m. would be copied from america. (all institutions: banks, libraries, etc. etc. ) and businesses, and people >> Then, it is very likely the Thais have picked it up from the Americans, as >> they have picked up a lot of other things: e.g., the love of pickup trucks [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >miguel I think you have what I said backwards. I said that America and Thailand are OPPOSITES when it comes to using a.m. and p.m. at 12:00. >> All I know is that in American, after 11:59 pm it is 12:00 AM, and after >> 11:59 am, it is 12:00 pm. That is the standard that everyone in America [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Per >http://lowdin.nu >> All I know is that in American, after 11:59 pm it is 12:00 AM, and after >> 11:59 am, it is 12:00 pm. That is the standard that everyone in America [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >12 PM as it is twelve hours past noon. Beyond, e.g., one minute past 12 PM, >becomes 0.01 AM. Etc. To me, the logical way would be the opposite of that. After 11:59pm comes midnight, then 12:01am, 12:02am etc. It would be better to refer to midnight as 12:00am so as to be consistent with the way you refer to the other times in the hour that follows midnight. 11:58pm, 11:59pm, 12:00pm, 12:01am, 12:02am doesn't look right. I do agree its better still to call the times 'noon' and 'midnight' to avoid confusion. > I do agree its better still to call the times 'noon' and 'midnight' to > avoid confusion. And why not the even better, ultimately simpler, 1200 (12:00, 12.00) and 2400 (24:00, 24.00) ? That gives you 1158, 1159, 1200, 1201, 1202 and 2358, 2359, 2400, 0001, 0002 with no ambiguity and no chance of confusion. In other words, why not FORGET this 'A.M.' and P.M.' nonsense altogether! It's too bad 'Swatch' time never caught on. :-) cheers, Henry >> I do agree its better still to call the times 'noon' and 'midnight' to >> avoid confusion. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >In other words, why not FORGET this 'A.M.' and P.M.' nonsense >altogether! Good idea, but saying "its zero forty-five" or "its oh forty-five" sounds so strange compared to saying "its twelve forty-five". > Good idea, but saying "its zero forty-five" or "its oh forty-five" > sounds so strange compared to saying "its twelve forty-five". Only for a short while. Almost everyone in Europe can handle that. /Tommy P. > > Todays Bangkokpost > > headline reminded me to ask about this.... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > What's wrong with that? (I don't get your point.) Neither do I. Nothing wrong with the notation. In Thailand the day is separated into 4 segments of 6 hours each, so it gets even more complicated. >Todays Bangkokpost >headline reminded me to ask about this.... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Thailand has probably has different rules about this....so maybe its >not really an 'ERROR"...just different rules. Well, PM stands for "post meridiem" which is Latin for "after noon." AM stand for "ante meridiem" which is Latin for "before noon". So I guess that midnight can properly be called either 12 AM or 12 PM. Better just to say midnight. Anyway, 12 PM is definitely not noon. Larry in Berkeley (sea otter 6 at aol dot com) > Well, PM stands for "post meridiem" which is Latin for "after noon." AM stand > for "ante meridiem" which is Latin for "before noon". So I guess that midnight > can properly be called either 12 AM or 12 PM. Better just to say midnight. > > Anyway, 12 PM is definitely not noon. Sorry, Larry. Midnight is exactly and only 12 A.M. and 12 P.M. is definitely noon and nothing but noon. Why? Because that is simply what the words mean. And if you want to claim otherwise, perhaps you can evince your position with authority other than your fevered brain. cheers, Henry >> Well, PM stands for "post meridiem" which is Latin for "after noon." AM stand >> for "ante meridiem" which is Latin for "before noon". So I guess that midnight [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >the words mean. And if you want to claim otherwise, perhaps you can >evince your position with authority other than your fevered brain. Here's another angle on it to consider. Sunrise today in Bangkok occurs at 6:30am, while sunset is at 6:25pm. That means that the local meridian (the time at which the sun is at its highest point) occurs at 12:27 in the afternoon. That being the case, 12 noon is actually *before* the meridian, so perhaps its technically correct to refer to 12 noon as 'AM', at least in Thailand. > >> Well, PM stands for "post meridiem" which is Latin for "after noon." > >> AM stand for "ante meridiem" which is Latin for "before noon". So I [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > case, 12 noon is actually *before* the meridian, so perhaps its > technically correct to refer to 12 noon as 'AM', at least in Thailand. No. In your example, 12.27 today in Bangkok is what we call 'local noon'. But, again, the reason comes down simply to convention. Otherwise, each minute of longitude would be its own time zone--and then where would we be??? cheers, Henry > Here's another angle on it to consider. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > case, 12 noon is actually *before* the meridian, so perhaps its > technically correct to refer to 12 noon as 'AM', at least in Thailand. In the 12 hour clock, noon is always at 12:00. 12 am is 00.00 (midnight) and 12 pm is 24:00 ((00:00) midnight). So, 12:01 am elapses one minute after 12[:00] am. 12[:00] pm elapses one minute after 11:59 pm. It seems to be very typical by convention that 12 am and 12 pm denote 00:00 and 12:00 respectively. However, as far as ante meridiem and post meridiem (off noon) are concerned, they both refer to midnight. 12:01 pm elapses 12:01 hours after 12 pm (and 12 am) and 11:59 hours before another pair of 12 am and 12 pm. > > Well, PM stands for "post meridiem" which is Latin for "after noon." AM stand > > for "ante meridiem" which is Latin for "before noon". So I guess that midnight [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Sorry, Larry. Midnight is exactly and only 12 A.M. and 12 P.M. is > definitely noon and nothing but noon. Why? Because that is simply what 12 pm is at midnight too. > the words mean. And if you want to claim otherwise, perhaps you can No they don't. > evince your position with authority other than your fevered brain. Take a look at the NIST text I posted earlier. > Todays Bangkokpost > headline reminded me to ask about this.... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > So, signs will say "open for breakfast 9am to 12pm", or "this movie theatre > is open 9pm to 12pm"....etc etc.... Actually noon is 12 M and midnight is 12 MM. But virtually nobody knows this so this is an utterly useless fact. |
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