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Travel Forum / Destinations / Asia / April 2004



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Southern Thailand civil war ??

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Alfred Molon - 28 Apr 2004 07:40 GMT
It appears that the police killed 45 people in southern Thailand, after
a series of coordinated raids on police outposts.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E698F783-538D-48D7-82BA-
343DB48FE769.htm

Big suprise for me - I thought Thailand was peaceful country.
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http://www.molon.de/Galleries.htm - Photos from Myanmar, Brunei,
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Spehro Pefhany - 28 Apr 2004 08:34 GMT
>It appears that the police killed 45 people in southern Thailand, after
>a series of coordinated raids on police outposts.
>http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E698F783-538D-48D7-82BA-
>343DB48FE769.htm
>
>Big suprise for me - I thought Thailand was peaceful country.

CBS says "at least 70", just in the past day. 8-(

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/world/main614100.shtml

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
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Tchiowa - 29 Apr 2004 01:57 GMT
> >It appears that the police killed 45 people in southern Thailand, after
> >a series of coordinated raids on police outposts.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> CBS says "at least 70", just in the past day. 8-(

Current toll says just over 100. News reports say that the muslim
rebels attacked police stations but that they police had been tipped
off and were waiting for them. Kind of a slaughter.

This is part of the muslim uprising that has been going on for years.
It heats up and cools down periodically. Thaksin says it is bandits
and criminals. But that appears to be an attempt to avoid tourism
fears. Most analysts that I have read say that it is part of Jemaah
Ismalayah's push to create an Islamic state across SE Asia.
Alfred Molon - 29 Apr 2004 04:32 GMT
>Current toll says just over 100. News reports say that the muslim
>rebels attacked police stations but that they police had been tipped
>off and were waiting for them. Kind of a slaughter.

Yes, I heard that too. What surprises me is that the Thai police would
create such a blood bath - most of the killed ones were between 15 to 20
years old. It certainly won't promote tourism in the area. The German
foreign office just issued a travel warning for trips to southern
Thailand. Thailand, "the land of smiles" ?
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Alfred Molon

http://www.molon.de/Galleries.htm - Photos from Myanmar, Brunei,
Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal, Egypt, Austria, Budapest and
Portugal

rinpoche - 29 Apr 2004 11:20 GMT
Why is it so surprising? It's not that they haven't opened fire at unarmed
people before. People who live in Thailand see a different Thailand than the
one tourists see. A lot of things are not what they seem.Check out The Force
of Karma by Pira Sudham.

--
http://www.knapsack.net
backpacking, trekking and mountaineering travelogues and photos.

> Yes, I heard that too. What surprises me is that the Thai police would
> create such a blood bath - most of the killed ones were between 15 to 20
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal, Egypt, Austria, Budapest and
> Portugal
Thomas F. Unke - 29 Apr 2004 13:18 GMT
> Yes, I heard that too. What surprises me is that the Thai police
> would create such a blood bath - most of the killed ones were
> between 15 to 20 years old.

Some more links about previous massacres in Thailand:

http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/tango/thailand1976a.htm
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA390042002?open&of=ENG-THA

Thailand was never a peaceful country. It helped the aggression against
Vietnam.  During 1980-1990, it was the main supporter for the thugs of
Pol Pot in Cambodia. With help from the US and other western nations,
they kept the bloody civil war running, costing ten thousands of
people's lives and crippling hundreds of thousands.

The common Western belief that Buddhists are peaceful people, smiling,
meditating and praying, is completely wrong. If you observe the recent
decades in the major Buddhist countries (Thailand, Myanmar, Cambodia),
there were more atrocities than in most other parts of the world.
Dieter Aaaa - 29 Apr 2004 17:56 GMT
> > Yes, I heard that too. What surprises me is that the Thai police
> > would create such a blood bath - most of the killed ones were
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> The common Western belief that Buddhists are peaceful people, smiling,
> meditating and praying, is completely wrong.

you fotgot a smiley, isn't it ?
Thomas F. Unke - 30 Apr 2004 10:13 GMT
> you fotgot a smiley, isn't it ?

No, but I forgot Sri Lanka on the list of buddhist countries involved
in mass killings.
Dieter Aaaa - 30 Apr 2004 13:34 GMT
> > you fotgot a smiley, isn't it ?
>
> No, but I forgot Sri Lanka on the list of buddhist countries involved
> in mass killings.

And Cashmir

and don't forget Stalin and Castro
Peter Loumann - 30 Apr 2004 22:55 GMT
"Dieter Aaaa" <Dieter Aaaa@pandora.cu> skrev:

>> [...] I forgot Sri Lanka on the list of buddhist countries involved
>> in mass killings.

>And Cashmir

>and don't forget Stalin and Castro

Thomas did not say there were no atrocities in other contries:

>If you observe the recent decades in the major Buddhist countries
>(Thailand, Myanmar, Cambodia), there were more atrocities than
>in most other parts of the world.

But I do believe Thomas has a significant point:

>The common Western belief that Buddhists are peaceful people, smiling,
>meditating and praying, is completely wrong.

I keep wondering that may travellers see only what they want or expect
to see.

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http://pedalo.dk/thailand/

me - 29 Apr 2004 14:10 GMT
> What surprises me is that the Thai police would
>create such a blood bath -

mmmm, Thai police are no boy scouts
Thomas F. Unke - 28 Apr 2004 09:23 GMT
> Big suprise for me - I thought Thailand was peaceful country.

Last year, the police killed over a thousand alleged "drug dealers" in
Bangkok alone.

Thailand was never really peaceful. In the 90s, the police shot down
hundreds of peaceful demonstrators near the democracy monument.
loikroh - 28 Apr 2004 10:43 GMT
> > Big suprise for me - I thought Thailand was peaceful country.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thailand was never really peaceful. In the 90s, the police shot down
> hundreds of peaceful demonstrators near the democracy monument.

Wasn't too safe in '76 either.  I'm still returning next week - seems very
localised in the south
cheers
Markku Grönroos - 28 Apr 2004 11:26 GMT
> > Big suprise for me - I thought Thailand was peaceful country.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thailand was never really peaceful. In the 90s, the police shot down
> hundreds of peaceful demonstrators near the democracy monument.

Military rule has been a norm in the kingdom until recent years. The
southernmost provinces with a moslem majority have struggled against  the
Thai sovereign as long as anyone can remember.
Thomas F. Unke - 28 Apr 2004 14:33 GMT
> Military rule has been a norm in the kingdom until recent years. The
> southernmost provinces with a moslem majority have struggled against  the
> Thai sovereign as long as anyone can remember.

About some of the extrajudicial killings last year, apparently by
order from Washington, can be read at:

http://www.article2.org/mainfile.php/0203/85/
ajali - 28 Apr 2004 20:17 GMT
> > > Big suprise for me - I thought Thailand was peaceful country.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> southernmost provinces with a moslem majority have struggled against  the
> Thai sovereign as long as anyone can remember.

You are right. Coming from that part of the world, I can safely say
the safest is Singapore, followed by Malaysia. Others like Thailand,
Philippine, Indonesia has always have difficulty from time to
time....Thailand, most often from the Southern area of Songkhla,
Pattani and Yala. Actually, the people in this area struggle for their
autonomy - it is a Muslim dominated area. But have been very very
quiet for quite a while since Thailand has become more democratic and
not under military rules or general rules. I think what happened was a
new kind of phenomenon...Suddenly there are insurgent of muslims
everywhere. This is truely a new phenomenon. Normally we only hear at
one area or two, probably one in the middle east...then maybe one if
africa.......years later maybe one or two again, maybe one in checnya
and one in some other places......This time around we hear everywhere.
Hopefully it never really turn a full scale war everywhere.

In Philippine you have the Moro group at the Southern Island. Also
know as MNLF. This group also fight for their autonomy probably
independent from Manila. Now we hear about the Abu Sayyaf group.

Then in Indonesia, there are several....the first was Timur Timur. I
think they already get their independent. Also in Indonedia is the
Aceh area....They also fighting for their own autonomy.

In Malaysia, every now and then if the politics is not good between
east and west Malaysia, you will hear some politicians from Sabah or
Sarawak want their own independent....But nothing really violance.
Just political thing because the military and police are under the
control of the federal government. But if you ask the locals
especially in Sabah, you will hear a mixed bags. Some say the like the
idea of independent Sabah, some will say otherwise. Those who want the
independent claimed that the West (Kuala Lumpur) steal their wealth -
from timber industry and now the oil industry and the federal
government has not invested enough for Sabah. They also claimed, the
federal government haven't provide enough security for their state
especially from immigrants and pirates in the area of Sandakan and
some tourists area like Sipadan...I think if you have travel over
there you know about it. But in general, I would say its safe. Just
ask the local if there is a new threat or security problem happen
lately. Now I think only Sipadan is on alert because of kidnapping
taking place a few years ago.

In Myanmar, Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam...This is more unstable area
from the above. But have been relatively safe for quite a while now.
Still a long way to go. Interesting area but always be on alert if
travel over there. Always ask the locals which area is not save to
visit at the time.

Anyway, if I am a tourist, I won't hesitate to go over there. Just be
alert like you travel everywhere, and get the latest news if some new
thing happen and where.
EAC - 29 Apr 2004 14:40 GMT
> You are right. Coming from that part of the world, I can safely say
> the safest is Singapore, followed by Malaysia. Others like Thailand,
> Philippine, Indonesia has always have difficulty from time to
> time....Thailand, most often from the Southern area of Songkhla,
> Pattani and Yala.

Er... You're using the definition of safety that is much like the
definition of safety in the land of Oceania in the novel "1984".

Sure Singapore is safe, but... is it healthy?

Anyway. It should be noted that every 'independence' rebel force all
around the world always had 'their' signature move, that includes the
French revolution and the American revolution. 'Freedom' in 'their'
term means freeing a country from its rulers and put the control of
the country in 'their' own hands.

As for which is the healthiest country.

The rule of thumb is... the worst 'they' tried to defame a country's
safety, the healthiest the country actually is. And by using that
rule, that's Indonesia. Just think, Indonesia has a large area, like
many healthy countries, it's bound to got several places that might
not be fine, but overall, the whole condition should be good. So...
don't you think that it's kinda strange that the mass media painted a
quite bleak picture on Indonesia as a whole? If you got a sore thumb,
why is that the medical journal potray you like you're a sick person?

Though most of the defamation in the mass media occurs locally, and
not in external mass media. Remember, 'their' primary intention is to
caused a country's people in fear, external defamation only
Dieter Aaaa - 29 Apr 2004 17:58 GMT
> > You are right. Coming from that part of the world, I can safely say
> > the safest is Singapore, followed by Malaysia. Others like Thailand,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Sure Singapore is safe, but... is it healthy?

it is definitely not healthy for your mind.
ajali - 30 Apr 2004 00:37 GMT
> > You are right. Coming from that part of the world, I can safely say
> > the safest is Singapore, followed by Malaysia. Others like Thailand,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Sure Singapore is safe, but... is it healthy?

healthy? probably not in political area.

> Anyway. It should be noted that every 'independence' rebel force all
> around the world always had 'their' signature move, that includes the
> French revolution and the American revolution. 'Freedom' in 'their'
> term means freeing a country from its rulers and put the control of
> the country in 'their' own hands.
Well, if its only a small group of it, I don't think that will help.
In Thailand case its only in the three area that I have mentioned -
Songhla, Pattani and Yala. I don't think any country would find that
acceptable to entertained the demand of autonomy that would likely end
up with the breakup of the country.

> As for which is the healthiest country.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> quite bleak picture on Indonesia as a whole? If you got a sore thumb,
> why is that the medical journal potray you like you're a sick person?

I tend to differ. Not in a violence way. Timur Timur might be
different issue because it was under Spain before Indonesia take over
and claimed its part of theirs. I don't think any reasonable Indonesia
government will let aceh to claimed their independent....They are part
of Indonesia.

> Though most of the defamation in the mass media occurs locally, and
> not in external mass media. Remember, 'their' primary intention is to
> caused a country's people in fear, external defamation only

Media.....Well, they will write what they consider as news worthy. But
its a diverse groups and cannot be put in one basket.....You can
always read different perspective of coverage. Some more focus on the
specific news, other might write  by informing the publics about the
real issue. I find BBC or NY Times, or WPost are quite extensive in
their coverage.
Dieter Aaaa - 28 Apr 2004 20:41 GMT
> > > Big suprise for me - I thought Thailand was peaceful country.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> southernmost provinces with a moslem majority have struggled against  the
> Thai sovereign as long as anyone can remember.

moslem ?
again ?

you must be kidding,  muslims are peacefull people
Maybe it was by coincidence ?
EAC - 29 Apr 2004 14:40 GMT
"Markku Gr?roos" <hassuserveri@kolumbus.fi> schreef in bericht
news:c6o0se$k01$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
> > Military rule has been a norm in the kingdom until recent years. The
> > southernmost provinces with a moslem majority have struggled against  the
> > Thai sovereign as long as anyone can remember.

> moslem ?
> again ?
>
> you must be kidding,  muslims are peacefull people
> Maybe it was by coincidence ?

'They' always use lackeys, remember Mahathir's words, 'proxy war'.
'Their' lackeys come in many different forms, from 'Muslim',
'Christian', 'Jews', 'American', 'Japan', and so on. Don't be fooled
by the lackeys, observe the real puppet master behind all of this.

And it should be noted that the Hadits mentioned that the punishment
for those who defy the local official government (no matter what kind
of government it is) is death (beheaded), and the Qur'an certainly
mentioned a quite severe punishment for those who cause senseless
destruction.
Viviane - 28 Apr 2004 10:40 GMT
According to the BBC site, it's 90 dead - this is a bit like an auction.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3665293.stm

> It appears that the police killed 45 people in southern Thailand, after
> a series of coordinated raids on police outposts.
> http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E698F783-538D-48D7-82BA-
> 343DB48FE769.htm
>
> Big suprise for me - I thought Thailand was peaceful country.
Rene R.F. Wildeman - 28 Apr 2004 20:20 GMT
This is going along already quite some time. It is better to avoid
that district but the rest of Thailand is still heaven (for tourists)

>It appears that the police killed 45 people in southern Thailand, after
>a series of coordinated raids on police outposts.
>http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E698F783-538D-48D7-82BA-
>343DB48FE769.htm
>
>Big suprise for me - I thought Thailand was peaceful country.
EAC - 29 Apr 2004 15:10 GMT
> It appears that the police killed 45 people in southern Thailand, after
> a series of coordinated raids on police outposts.
> http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E698F783-538D-48D7-82BA-
> 343DB48FE769.htm
>
> Big suprise for me - I thought Thailand was peaceful country.

It probably is, do you think that the mass media has a sincere
intention when this kind of news is reported?

Nevertheless, what ever happen in a far away land is none of one's
business unless one is really involved personally in it.

Like the saying said, 'resist no evil'. The Devil's quite good in the
principles of Judo, and one of the principles of Judo is... to use
your's opponent own momentum to hurt himself.
Miguel Cruz - 29 Apr 2004 18:50 GMT
> Nevertheless, what ever happen in a far away land is none of one's
> business unless one is really involved personally in it.

How much does the Evil Dictators' Public Relations Alliance pay for your
services, and how can I get in on the action?

miguel
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