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Travel Forum / Destinations / Asia / June 2005Yangtze River Cruise & Other China Questions
I'm traveling (last minute) to China in mid-July with my wife and two children (11 & 14). We only have 14 days and would appreciate helpful comments on the best use of our time. My wife would like to buy everything old and great (how do you get that stuff back to California?), and my kids need to see how other live. What is the deal on these Yangze River cruises to the Gorges? Is 5 days too much time? Would I be better off doing a shorter trip or skipping it entirely and making a side trip to Hong Kong? I have 5 full days in Beijing? Too much? Do I need a guide or should we just "wing it"? How much are they anyway? What about Xi'an; is it just 10,000 "Terra Cotta" statues? We only have scheduled 1-2 days in Shanghai; is that enough? How about Chengdu? Pandas? Am I missing something special? All comments appreciated. > My wife would like to buy everything > old and great (how do you get that stuff back to California?), Not by going to China, unfortunately. The 'old and great' things presented for sale are all fake. Unless you are already expert in such matters, China is the last place you should be shopping for antiques, jade, jewellery, etc. If you are an expert then there'll be nothing you want to buy. >and my kids > need to see how other live. > > What is the deal on these Yangze River cruises to the Gorges? Is 5 days too > much time? Would I be better off doing a shorter trip or skipping it > entirely and making a side trip to Hong Kong? Especially if you are interested in letting your children see how others live, you should skip the cruise and replace it with a trip into the countryside. The cruise is simply the most overrated experience in China, but even if it weren't there seems little point in wasting five days out of a mere 14 in an ersatz Western environment. There are shorter versions (go downstream rather than up, for instance), but essentially this is a fake experience and horribly over-priced unless you are willing to show up at the docks and buy a ticket there. Hong Kong is something quite different from the rest of China and well worth visiting as an alternative to the cruise, but perhaps just for two days out of your 14--get a mainland countryside trip in there, too. Shopping for the 'old and great' in Hong Kong is also a little less dangerous at least at certain of the Hollywood Road antique dealers, although not at others. Supplies of antiques smuggled out of the mainland are dropping, however, and prices rising, which means that the selling of fakes is also likely to increase. But go to Dragon Culture (was three, now two stores in Hollywood Road). > I have 5 full days in Beijing? Too much? In general the best way to approach China is to visit a small number of destinations and see them thoroughly. But if you want to get a wider view of the country you might reduce this to four or three days. >Do I need a guide or should we > just "wing it"? Wing it. Take a decent guide book, show characters from the book to cab drivers, carry a map, and take the hotel's card to show the driver when you want to return. Tens of thousands of people 'wing it' in China every year, and if you think you could tackle Paris on your own, you can certainly tackle Beijing. >How much are they anyway? Hugely overpriced, and that's before you start counting the kick-backs they receive from the restaurants and stores they take you to. > What about Xi'an; is it just 10,000 "Terra Cotta" statues? What about Egypt; is it just the pyramids? There are many other sights in and around Xi'an, but most would consider the Terracotta Warriors to be sight enough. > We only have scheduled 1-2 days in Shanghai; is that enough? Plenty. You could omit Shanghai altogether (especially if visiting Hong Kong) to get more variety other than the big cities. Did I mention the countryside? That's where the overwhelming majority of the Chinese still live. > How about Chengdu? Pandas? I'd skip those for going on to Yunnan, perhaps. > Am I missing something special? Of course. You only have 14 days. Best just to think about making the best of those. Beijing-Xi'an-some countryside (Yunnan?)-Hong Kong, perhaps? This would be plenty for 14 days. > All comments appreciated. Peter N-H http://members.shaw.ca/pnhpublic/China.html What about the countryside? I've heard mention of Yunnan but don't know anything about it? What to see, where to stay . . . how to get there from . . . ? P.S. I noticed that you're the moderator for the Oriental-List. I tried to join and post but evidently managed to botch it. I'm going to take your advice and limit or skip the cruise and Shanghai. I'd appreciate some more detailed information from someone experienced like yourself. Although I'm going to run down to Borders and see if they have your book, any chance I can email or telephone you directly? I'd be happy to compensate you for your time. >> My wife would like to buy everything >> old and great (how do you get that stuff back to California?), [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > Peter N-H > http://members.shaw.ca/pnhpublic/China.html > What about the countryside? I've heard mention of Yunnan but don't know > anything about it? What to see, where to stay . . . how to get there from . > . . ? A little guide book reading perhaps? All the guides cover Yunnan to a certain extent, particularly Dali, Lijiang, and Xishuang Banna, although there's a great deal more. Even a simple web search should produce a lot of information. These places do receive a lot of visitors, but still represent a very different China from that of the big cities. Even better, while in Dali, say, take a bus to other outlying towns and villages that are also well-preserved but not on the tourist/backpacker trails (such as Wushan). So you might consider something like Beijing (4 nights--take overnight express train on night 4)--Xi'an (2 or 3 nights)--Kunming (capital of Yunnan, 1 night)--Dali (3 nights or 4 with Lijiang)--Hong Kong (3 nights). That's quite a lot of ground to cover, and will require flights Xi'an-Kunming, preferably Kunming-Dali, and Dali-Kunming-Hong Kong (or, much cheaper, to Shenzhen and then by Turbojet boat to Hong Kong--see www.turbocat.com). Rural trips from Beijing are also not too hard to arrange, such as trips using ordinary public bus to Jietai Si and Tanzhe Si. From either of these splendid temples simply stroll off down the lanes into leafy countryside to see real, not made-for-tourists rural life. > P.S. I noticed that you're the moderator for the Oriental-List. I tried to > join and post but evidently managed to botch it. According to the records you've been a member for three days. Have you checked your junk mail folder? There have been plenty of messages, and there's no evidence on the server at this end that your mail is bouncing. Peter N-H http://members.shaw.ca/pnhpublic/China.html Thank you for your responses. "...guide book reading...." I just picked up the Frommer's book and I'm in the process of trying to narrow my options. I couldn't find any of your other books at Borders. So you see, I'm not lazy, just short on time. Your suggested itinerary seems good for me, however, do you think that my children will be able to keep up? I'm receiving others' postings, but not my own. >> What about the countryside? I've heard mention of Yunnan but don't know >> anything about it? What to see, where to stay . . . how to get there [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Peter N-H > http://members.shaw.ca/pnhpublic/China.html > "...guide book reading...." I just picked up the Frommer's book and I'm in > the process of trying to narrow my options. You'll find Dali covered there, as well as details of access from Kunming. But firstly, read Chapter 2 from end to end very carefully. > Your suggested itinerary seems good for me, however, do you think that my > children will be able to keep up? Impossible to say without knowing them. As you'll see from other postings in reply to your original one, for every person who thinks that getting around Beijing presents no difficulties, there's one who thinks its impossible. For every child who will find China endlessly stimulating and enjoy trying to help Dad navigate, there's one who will bemoan the lack of the familiar and want to be somewhere else. But the rough itinerary suggested is far less hectic than that of most organized tours. There are several days in Beijing to adjust; an overnight train to Xi'an should be fun for most children; the Terracotta Warriors seem to appeal to children; a couple of days in Xi'an before flying on to Kunming and Dali should make things less of a rush. But it's the adults who tend to tire first, rather than children. > I'm receiving others' postings, but not my own. Either you're posting to the wrong address, or your postings have breached list guidelines. The kind of enquiries you've been making here wouldn't be suitable on the list, for instance, which deals in more specific queries, and those not answerable by looking in guide books. Peter N-H http://members.shaw.ca/pnhpublic/China.html >> What about the countryside? > So you might consider something like Beijing (4 nights--take overnight > express train on night 4)--Xi'an (2 or 3 nights)--Kunming (capital of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Kong (or, much cheaper, to Shenzhen and then by Turbojet boat to Hong > Kong... Agree with most of the plan except: Xian: just and only go to the teracotta warriors, really nothing else interesting to see there. (my business friends in Xian will not appreciate this statement, sorry guys) Hong Kong: skip Hong Kong or replace it by Shanghai/Suzhou China is booming business, not just countryside In Shanghai, make a trip with the Magalev and go to the top floor of the JinMao building. Hong Kong isn't China, Hong Kong is just Londen with Chinese looking people. (now almost all my KH friends will hate me, but i know that at least 2 will agree with me) And stay away in Shenzhen, unless you want your wallet get stolen. Did i said that too straightforward ? When you are in Beijing, don't forget to go to the great wall, little bit physical excercise. And as Peter already mentioned: go to the countryside. Visit, sleep, eat, work with and talk to the people there. One more point i disagree with Peter: take a guide, preferably female, a good one, not one in the "China is the greatest" style. But i do not know where to find a "facts and figures" guide. Almost all professional guides in China don't mind to exagerrate the qualities of their country. It's really annoying. Some guides will catch a fee from shop or restaurant holders. Just be aware of it before you decide. Your guide speaks Chinese, she can make your trip much more efficient. She can find a restaurant much more faster than you can. She can make your trip more enjoyable during the time you are in the train, car or airplane. Make sure that your guide is a bridge, rather than a wall towards the local people. A good personal guide is a luxury i very much appreciate. Travel is fun and making contact with people. Without a guide it is so much more difficult, certainly if you do not speak Chinese. And make some preparation yourself by searching the internet for information about the cities you want to visit. One more thing: China has a culture of giving and receiving presents. Better prepare you for that, otherwise, you'll have to sing: Duo xìe liao, duo xìe sì fang zhòng xiang qin, Thank you, thank you all my friends, Wo jia méi you hao chá fàn, I have no good tea or rice, Zhi you shan ge jìng qinrén, jìng qinrén Only folksongs for my friends. Qu xiào duo, huàméi qu xiào xiào yángqùe, Sneering, magpie sneers sparrow, Wo shì nèn niao caí xúe chàng, I am just a little bird who starts to learn singing Róng máo yazi chu xiàhé, chu xiàhé Like a little duck first learn to swim in the river. Where would I find such a guide and how much should I expect to pay? >>> What about the countryside? > [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > Róng máo yazi chu xiàhé, chu xiàhé > Like a little duck first learn to swim in the river. >> One more point i disagree with Peter: take a guide, preferably >> female, a good one, not one in the "China is the greatest" style. But i [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> fun and making contact with people. Without a guide it is so much >> more difficult, certainly if you do not speak Chinese. > Where would I find such a guide and how much should I expect to > pay? I wish i was able to answer that question. I had the good fortune to have a reliable close friend who just finished her studies as a tour guide. But even she was so very persuaded of the overblown greatness of China ... ... > I'm traveling (last minute) to China in mid-July with my wife and two > children (11 & 14). We only have 14 days and would appreciate helpful [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > too much time? Would I be better off doing a shorter trip or skipping it > entirely and making a side trip to Hong Kong? My personal opinion -- I'd skip the cruise. They isolate you from the real China. Hong Kong is a fascinating city, unique in the world. The mix between European and Chinese culture is amazing. > I have 5 full days in Beijing? Too much? Barely enough. There's an awful lot to see in and around Beijing. My wife and I were just there a few months ago for 8 days. My wife grew up in Beijing, but it was my first time, so she played guide for me. Even with 8 days, there were lots of "first time tourist" kinds of things that we didn't get to see. > Do I need a guide or should we just "wing it"? Wing it. Beijing is very visitable whether you know the language or not. Getting around can be a little difficult, only because a lot of the cab drivers don't know their way around. Get the hotel to write down, in Chinese characters, the name, address and directions to where you want to go. The hotel will give you a card with return information for when you come back. Show it to the cab driver. You can hire a driver for the day to visit the Geat Wall. We paid around $40 USD. > How much are they anyway? > > What about Xi'an; is it just 10,000 "Terra Cotta" statues? I don't know how to respond to that. Xi'an is an old city, and there's more to city than the Terra Cotta warriors. Yes, there are 10,000 of them. "Just"? > We only have scheduled 1-2 days in Shanghai; is that enough? It depends on what you want to do. Shanghai is a very modern city. There's a fake antique street (good souvenirs, though) and a huge, open-air knock-off market. Within an hour or two of Shanghai are a number of historical towns that are very interesting. > How about Chengdu? Pandas? Haven't been there, don't know. > Am I missing something special? Well, yes, in a manner of speaking. The point of foreign travel isn't just to SEE what's there, but simply to BE there. China will seem both familiar and extoic, but quite different from what you're used to. At least for me, the fun of going anywhere internationally is walking around the streets, dropping in to shops and markets, trying local restaurants, etc. THAT is special, at least to me. > All comments appreciated. I agree with your final comment. I'd love to wander but traveling with four requires a little more planning. What did you enjoy most in Beijing? >> I'm traveling (last minute) to China in mid-July with my wife and two >> children (11 & 14). We only have 14 days and would appreciate helpful [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > >> All comments appreciated. >I agree with your final comment. I'd love to wander but traveling with >four requires a little more planning. What did you enjoy most in Beijing? That's a hard one. We travel internationally a lot, but I enjoyed our Beijing trip more than anywhere else I've been. There's a wonderful Peking duck restaurant calld Quan Judo (I'm approximating the Pinyin). It's 400 years old and the meal there was the best I ever had -- we liked it so well we went back. The Great Wall was impressive (though exhausting). The Forbidden City is extraordinary. >>> I'm traveling (last minute) to China in mid-July with my wife and two >>> children (11 & 14). We only have 14 days and would appreciate helpful [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] >> >>> All comments appreciated. >>>You are lucky you have received good advice. My 2 cents. I have traveled in China collectively for over a year. For 14 days and having never been to China before, you need a guide. Skip big cities like Shanghai, Hong Kong, and Xian. They are not China. Go to the Terra Cotta Army. They are famous, but read before. There are LOTS of vey nice places to see in and around Xian. Banpo, for example, is aNeolithic Village. The Yangtse River Cruises are not worth the three to five days they take. 5 days in Beijing is fine, but READ, READ, READ before you go. I just went back to the Lama Temple in Beijing and spent a half say. I had been there twice before but did not know what I was seeing. The nicest town I saw was Tunxi, about two hours drive from Huangshan. Family kind of place. >I'm traveling (last minute) to China in mid-July with my wife and two >children (11 & 14). We only have 14 days and would appreciate helpful [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >All comments appreciated. >>>>You are lucky you have received good advice. > >My 2 cents. I have traveled in China collectively for over a year. > >For 14 days and having never been to China before, you need a guide. I didn't need one - in 1987, when individual travelers were a real oddity. I travelled to China again last summer, and my comments below are based on my reactions to what I experienced on that trip. >Skip big cities like Shanghai, Hong Kong, and Xian. They are not >China. [snip] Like New York is not the U.S.? Shanghai is probably the city with the most construction happening day and night in the World today, and it has a very striking ultra-modern skyline. At the same time that it is a magnet for a tremendous amount of investment from Chinese and multinational businesses, it is also a magnet for unemployed, homeless, destitute people from the countryside of many provinces, unable to support themselves as peasants or laid-off factory workers and desperate to find work in that center of capitalism in China. While undoubtedly atypical of China, Shanghai is a city that has great importance not only for the present and future of China but the present and future of the World. [snip] >5 days in Beijing is fine, but READ, READ, READ before you go. I just >went back to the Lama Temple in Beijing and spent a half say. I had >been there twice before but did not know what I was seeing. I agree that reading up is good, but I seem to recall that there are plaques or/and signs giving information in English about each building and the sacred paintings and sculptures within. Beijing is also undoubtedly atypical of China and also is undergoing a tremendous, rapid construction boom accompanying the social dislocation of the involuntary destruction of traditional village-like neighborhoods known as hutong (how many normal ones are left now? any?). An important thing to keep in mind is precisely that cities like Beijing and Shanghai are atypical of China - much more tied into the rest of the world and its financial system and so forth than a rather large provincial city like Changchun, which I also visited last year, let alone the impoverished countryside. But that doesn't mean they're not worth visiting for their own sake. Michael If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the NOTRASH. Please do not email me something which you also posted. I agree; there is a dynamic to all communities, large and small. The question for my family and I is how to experience a diverse and enjoyable cross-section within our time constraints. Mr. Neville-Hadley has recommended Dali and Lijang for 3-4 days. However, it seems like we would be spending a lot of time flying as opposed to experiencing. What do you think. All comments appreciated. >>>>>You are lucky you have received good advice. >> [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the > NOTRASH. Please do not email me something which you also posted. >I agree; there is a dynamic to all communities, large and small. The >question for my family and I is how to experience a diverse and enjoyable [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >it seems like we would be spending a lot of time flying as opposed to >experiencing. What do you think. [snip] Mr. Neville-Hadley is an expert on China travel, so I give you permission to take my comments with a grain of salt. [smile] But I don't think you want to tire yourselves out by flying every few days. I also think that seeking a cross-section in just two weeks of visiting the 3rd-largest country in the world (in area) is a losing proposition. Plan to return and see more on future trips. Michael If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the NOTRASH. Please do not email me something which you also posted. What would you suggest instead of Dali and Lijang? What about the Guilin area? >>I agree; there is a dynamic to all communities, large and small. The >>question for my family and I is how to experience a diverse and enjoyable [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the > NOTRASH. Please do not email me something which you also posted. >What would you suggest instead of Dali and Lijang? What about the Guilin >area? I haven't yet been to any of those places. My general advice for trips, though, is to spend more time in fewer places rather than less time in more places, especially for a first trip to a country. But as I said, Mr. Neville-Hadley is an expert and in fact wrote a guidebook. Michael If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the NOTRASH. Please do not email me something which you also posted. >>>>> You are lucky you have received good advice. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I didn't need one - in 1987, when individual travelers were a real > oddity. Absolutely right, i fully agree with your statement: "I didn't need one" But traveling is much more than absorbing with your eyes the things you have seen before in a guidebook or on internet. Traveling is making fun, have a good time, dinner, talking to people, try to understand their culture, knowing what you are eating, drinking and watching. A good guide can help you with these things. Also, a good personal guide can offer you efficiency, helping you to save time. And she will hurry to offer you a paper towel when you start eating an orange. Maybe some people in the west will think that this sentence is showing a kind of lack of respect for my guide. But I assure you, it isn't. On the contrary. >>>>>> You are lucky you have received good advice. >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >But traveling is much more than absorbing with your eyes the things you have >seen before in a guidebook or on internet. Yes, it was. >Traveling is making fun, have a good time, dinner, talking to people, try to >understand their culture, knowing what you are eating, drinking and >watching. I did all those things. >A good guide can help you with these things. >Also, a good personal guide can offer you efficiency, helping you to save [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >kind of lack of respect for my guide. But I assure you, it isn't. On the >contrary. There are things you learn from, relatively speaking, "roughing it," that you can't learn any other way. I learned a great deal from taking long-distance buses and taking long hard-seat and hard-sleeper train trips in China, for example. I don't think a guide would have accompanied me on my 13 1/2-hour overnight hard seat trip from Wuxi to Beijing, but it was a fascinating experience for me and well worth getting only about 3 1/2 hours sleep with my head on the table. Plus, I had the chance to be proud of myself for successfully purchasing my own train ticket at the Wuxi train station with rudimentary Mandarin. To be fair, I'll mention that a man decided to function as an informal guide for me for part of the time I was in Beijing, in exchange for practicing English, and that did lead to some experiences I wouldn't have had otherwise. He later wrote me asking that I serve as a guarantor that he would pay tuition at a university in the U.S., though, which didn't happen. Michael If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the NOTRASH. Please do not email me something which you also posted. >>>You are lucky you have received good advice. My 2 cents. I have traveled in China collectively for over a year. For 14 days and having never been to China before, you need a guide. Skip big cities like Shanghai, Hong Kong, and Xian. They are not China. Go to the Terra Cotta Army. They are famous, but read before. There are LOTS of vey nice places to see in and around Xian. Banpo, for example, is aNeolithic Village. The Yangtse River Cruises are not worth the three to five days they take. 5 days in Beijing is fine, but READ, READ, READ before you go. I just went back to the Lama Temple in Beijing and spent a half say. I had been there twice before but did not know what I was seeing. The nicest town I saw was Tunxi, about two hours drive from Huangshan. Family kind of place. >I'm traveling (last minute) to China in mid-July with my wife and two >children (11 & 14). We only have 14 days and would appreciate helpful [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >All comments appreciated. |
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