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Travel Forum / Destinations / Europe / July 2008



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Amsterdam Smoking Ban!

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Hackamore - 28 Jun 2008 16:04 GMT
AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - This city's many fine coffee shops have faced
many problems over the years and are still going strong. But, on July 1,
the Netherlands will be one of the last European countries to ban
smoking in bars and restaurants in compliance with EU law.

The Health Ministry says the ban will apply to cafes that sell
marijuana, known as coffee shops. But this being Holland, which for
centuries has experimented with social liberalism, there's a loophole:
The ban covers tobacco but not marijuana, which is technically illegal
anyway.

But that still leaves coffee shops and their customers in a bind. Dutch
and other European marijuana users traditionally smoke cannabis (both
pot and hash) pot mixed with tobacco.

"It's the world upside down: In other countries they look for the
marijuana in the cigarette. Here they look for the cigarette in the
marijuana," said Jason den Enting, manager of coffee shop Dampkring.

Shops are scrambling to adapt. One alternative is "vaporizer" machines,
which heat weed smokelessly. Another is to replace tobacco with herbs
like coltsfoot, a common plant that looks like a dandelion and that
smokers describe as tasting a bit like oregano.

But most shops are just planning to increase their sales of hash
brownies and pure weed — and are hoping the law isn't enforced.

Michael Veling, owner of the 4-20 Cafe and a board member of the
Cannabis Retailers' Union, said he expected a small decline in sales as
smokers are forced to separate their nicotine addiction from their
marijuana use.

But he expects the long-term effects to be minimal. "It's absurd to say
that coffee shops will go bankrupt in the second week of July.
Nonsense," he said.

Veling is instructing his staff to send tobacco smokers outside, but he
doesn't expect all coffee shops to do the same. He said some owners will
ignore the ban — and will probably get away with it, at least for a
while... coffee shops were illegal for years after all.

But "if obeying the smoking ban becomes a condition of renewing your
business license, just watch how fast it will happen," he said. "That's
the way things work."

Chris Krikken, spokesman for the Food and Wares Authority, charged with
enforcing the ban, said his agency won't be targeting coffee shops in
particular.

"For the first month we'll just be gathering information about
compliance in a wide range of hospitality businesses. Depending on what
we find, we may focus more squarely on a sector that's lagging," he said.

But he said individual businesses caught allowing customers to smoke
will be warned and definitely checked again. "Repeat offenders will face
escalating fines," he said.

Marijuana possession is illegal but openly tolerated in the Netherlands,
but smokers are not prosecuted for holding up to 5 grams. Around 750
cafes — with almost half of them in Amsterdam — are licensed to have up
to 500 grams in stock at any one time.

The Dutch "tolerance" policy recognizes that some people will smoke pot
regardless of laws, so it might as well happen in a safe orderly way.

Cannabis use in Holland ranks somewhere in the middle compared to other
nations and is lower than in the U.S., France and England, according to
statistics compiled by the United Nations' Office on Drugs and Crime.

The Dutch government, currently led by a conservative coalition with a
religious bent, is slowly squeezing back the number of coffee shops by
not renewing licenses when shops close.

Growers are arrested, leaving coffee shop owners struggling to obtain
their main product.

"The rules are being set to pester us out of business one by one, slowly
but surely," said Richard van Velthoven, manager at The Greenhouse, who
said he feared being shut down for tobacco violations.

"I've taken the cigarette machines out, I'm putting Coltsfoot on the
tables, I've bought extra vaporizers, the staff is watching out — what
more can I do?" he said.

German tourist Lars Schmit said lamented the possible end of an era.

Without coffee shops, he said, "a little bit of Amsterdam will die."

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    >>>==>> Hackamore <<==<<<
    http://www.hackamore.com/
http://hackamoretravel.blogspot.com/

Mustafa Kamel - 28 Jun 2008 18:29 GMT
> German tourist Lars Schmit said lamented the possible end of an era.
> Without coffee shops, he said, "a little bit of Amsterdam will die."

conversely, less people will....
Yakky Dah - 28 Jun 2008 19:15 GMT
>> German tourist Lars Schmit said lamented the possible end of an era.
>> Without coffee shops, he said, "a little bit of Amsterdam will die."
>
> conversely, less people will....

Eh??????????????
Puffin' Billy - 29 Jun 2008 12:05 GMT
> >> German tourist Lars Schmit said lamented the possible end of an era.
> >> Without coffee shops, he said, "a little bit of Amsterdam will die."
>
> > conversely, less people will....
>
> Eh??????????????

Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Anonymouse - 09 Jul 2008 19:02 GMT
>> German tourist Lars Schmit said lamented the possible end of an era.
>> Without coffee shops, he said, "a little bit of Amsterdam will die."
>
> conversely, less people will....

fewer people will visit and spend money in the local economy... hotels,
trams, restaurants, cabs, etc.

the coffee shops have been good for amsterdam tourism (especially since
licensing has shut out the fly by night operators)

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Hackamore
http://www.hackamore.com
http://hackamoretravel.blogspot.com

thats the last time I'm wearing a tie - 09 Jul 2008 20:59 GMT
> >> German tourist Lars Schmit said lamented the possible end of an era.
> >> Without coffee shops, he said, "a little bit of Amsterdam will die."
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> fewer people will visit and spend money in the local economy... hotels,
> trams, restaurants, cabs, etc.

they will learn to smoke outside, or give up smoking altogether

> the coffee shops have been good for amsterdam tourism (especially since
> licensing has shut out the fly by night operators)

and wars are good for arms manufacturers....
Gavin Christie - 15 Jul 2008 05:39 GMT
What? nobody ever died from pot you f.cking idiot.

Only way you could die from pot is if a 50 kilo lump of it fell on your head
you bloody ignoramus.

>> German tourist Lars Schmit said lamented the possible end of an era.
>> Without coffee shops, he said, "a little bit of Amsterdam will die."
>
> conversely, less people will....
Ian F. - 28 Jun 2008 23:25 GMT
> The Health Ministry says the ban will apply to cafes that sell
> marijuana, known as coffee shops.

I was there last weekend and was told that the brown cafes were exempt.
I'm not sure anyone knows quite what the position will be.

Ian
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) - 29 Jun 2008 00:46 GMT
> > The Health Ministry says the ban will apply to cafes that sell
> > marijuana, known as coffee shops.
>
> I was there last weekend and was told that the brown cafes were exempt.
> I'm not sure anyone knows quite what the position will be.

As long as they stop smoking in restaurants and bars, I don't think I
personally care! :)

Signature

(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate -www.davidhorne.net
(email address on website) "If people think God is interesting, the
onus is on them to show that there is anything there to talk about.
Otherwise they should just shut up about it."  -Richard Dawkins

Mister B - 04 Jul 2008 14:13 GMT
On Jun 29, 1:46 am, d4g...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor
(*)) wrote:

> As long as they stop smoking in restaurants and bars, I don't think I
> personally care! :)

Went out for a meal last night for the first time since the smoking
ban was introduced - it was heaven!!

Well, as close to heaven as you can get in a Dutch restaurant,
anyway ..

B;.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) - 04 Jul 2008 19:24 GMT
> On Jun 29, 1:46 am, d4g...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor
> (*)) wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Went out for a meal last night for the first time since the smoking
> ban was introduced - it was heaven!!

Luckily, we didn't have much of a problem with smoke on the last short
trip to NL, though we did have to avoid a couple of places because of
it. I agree- it's so nice not having to worry about it as an issue. I
wish Spain would catch up... I'm minded only to ever visit in warmer
months in future...

Signature

(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate -www.davidhorne.net
(email address on website) "If people think God is interesting, the
onus is on them to show that there is anything there to talk about.
Otherwise they should just shut up about it."  -Richard Dawkins

Jim Ley - 04 Jul 2008 20:59 GMT
>> On Jun 29, 1:46 am, d4g...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor
>> (*)) wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Luckily, we didn't have much of a problem with smoke on the last short
>trip to NL,

I found holland a lot more annoying on wed-fri this week, the tran
station platforms are now completely overrun with people smoking, it
was so much more noticeable than in other visits, it was really
annoying (Of course I have spent lots of time on train platforms these
last few days.)

Jim.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) - 04 Jul 2008 21:03 GMT
> >> On Jun 29, 1:46 am, d4g...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor
> >> (*)) wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> annoying (Of course I have spent lots of time on train platforms these
> last few days.)

Is that permitted? I forget...

Signature

(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate -www.davidhorne.net
(email address on website) "If people think God is interesting, the
onus is on them to show that there is anything there to talk about.
Otherwise they should just shut up about it."  -Richard Dawkins

Jim Ley - 04 Jul 2008 21:10 GMT
>> I found holland a lot more annoying on wed-fri this week, the tran
>> station platforms are now completely overrun with people smoking, it
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Is that permitted? I forget...

There are still smokring zones on the platform, but it's just an area,
and people spread out all around them and well away.

Jim.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) - 04 Jul 2008 21:21 GMT
> >> I found holland a lot more annoying on wed-fri this week, the tran
> >> station platforms are now completely overrun with people smoking, it
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> There are still smokring zones on the platform, but it's just an area,
> and people spread out all around them and well away.

How annoying. They should be banned in all stations etc. I'm surprised
that hasn't happened. I still notice people catching a fly smoke in
uncovered areas on UK platforms (it's banned in any station) but that's
happening a _lot_ less. Nothing a £50 fine per discarded butt wouldn't
fix... :)

Signature

(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate -www.davidhorne.net
(email address on website) "If people think God is interesting, the
onus is on them to show that there is anything there to talk about.
Otherwise they should just shut up about it."  -Richard Dawkins

Mister B - 06 Jul 2008 09:51 GMT
On Jul 4, 10:21 pm, d4g...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor
(*)) wrote:

> > >> I found holland a lot more annoying on wed-fri this week, the tran
> > >> station platforms are now completely overrun with people smoking, it
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> happening a _lot_ less. Nothing a £50 fine per discarded butt wouldn't
> fix... :)

I noticed this morning that smoking is now completely banned in
Schiphol.

Which is nice.

B;
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) - 06 Jul 2008 09:52 GMT
> On Jul 4, 10:21 pm, d4g...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor
> (*)) wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Which is nice.

This was already the case in May, when we were there- and yes, it is! :)

Signature

(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate -www.davidhorne.net
(email address on website) "If people think God is interesting, the
onus is on them to show that there is anything there to talk about.
Otherwise they should just shut up about it."  -Richard Dawkins

Mister B - 04 Jul 2008 22:10 GMT
On Jul 4, 10:03 pm, d4g...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor
(*)) wrote:

> > >> On Jun 29, 1:46 am, d4g...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor
> > >> (*)) wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Is that permitted? I forget...

It is in "smoking zones", but these don't have defined boundaries.

B;
Martin - 14 Jul 2008 12:35 GMT
>On Jun 29, 1:46 am, d4g...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor
>(*)) wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Well, as close to heaven as you can get in a Dutch restaurant,
>anyway ..

... did you take a packed lunch?
Signature


Martin

Runge12 - 14 Jul 2008 14:57 GMT
Hahahaha funny martin is back
The jokes too
Waiting for his pal martin newpoort, the benelux copy/paste party will
resume soon.

>>On Jun 29, 1:46 am, d4g...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor
>>(*)) wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> ... did you take a packed lunch?
Gregory Morrow - 14 Jul 2008 15:52 GMT
scRunge12 blabbles:

> Hahahaha funny martin is back
> The jokes too
> Waiting for his pal martin newpoort, the benelux copy/paste party will
> resume soon.

scRunge is banned not only in A'dam, but throughout the EU...in fact the
only place he is wilkommen is Belarus...it is the last refuge of scoundrels
in Europa...!!!

Signature

Best
Greg

" I find Greg Morrow  lowbrow, witless, and obnoxious. For him to claim that
we are some
kind of comedy team turns my stomach."
- "cybercat" to me on rec.food.cooking

> >>On Jun 29, 1:46 am, d4g...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor
> >>(*)) wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> >
> > ... did you take a packed lunch?
Runge12 - 14 Jul 2008 19:25 GMT
Ha morrow sticks his furry head out of the air conditioned sexshop

> scRunge12 blabbles:
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>> >
>> > ... did you take a packed lunch?
Martin - 14 Jul 2008 12:32 GMT
>> > The Health Ministry says the ban will apply to cafes that sell
>> > marijuana, known as coffee shops.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>As long as they stop smoking in restaurants and bars, I don't think I
>personally care! :)

Brown cafes aren't exempt. A legal action to make them exempt failed.

North Sea Ferries have introduced a complete ban on smoking except in some areas
outside. Hurray!
Signature


Martin

Don Wiss - 22 Jul 2008 22:32 GMT
>Brown cafes aren't exempt. A legal action to make them exempt failed.

I just got back. It seems to be a big mix. Outside of Amsterdam I heard
that many of the coffee shops have reduced their floor space to just a
dispensary. In Amsterdam it is all over the place. There are four
variations found there:

- no smoking at all
- pure pot only
- tobacco mixed with pot
- even cigarettes can be smoked

I think the first one is really rare. Outside of the big cities I believe
the pure pot only is about the only choice. The problem is the Dutch really
like mixing their pot with tobacco.

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Martin - 22 Jul 2008 22:43 GMT
>>Brown cafes aren't exempt. A legal action to make them exempt failed.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>- no smoking at all

no smoking of tobacco at all is legal.

>- pure pot only

is legal

>- tobacco mixed with pot

is illegal

>- even cigarettes can be smoked

and is illegal.

>I think the first one is really rare. Outside of the big cities I believe
>the pure pot only is about the only choice. The problem is the Dutch really
>like mixing their pot with tobacco.

Local newspaper says that coffee shops have turned into pot take aways.
Signature


Martin

Don Wiss - 23 Jul 2008 02:10 GMT
>Local newspaper says that coffee shops have turned into pot take aways.

That is correct outside of the big cities. But definitely not for
Amsterdam.

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Martin - 23 Jul 2008 07:56 GMT
>>Local newspaper says that coffee shops have turned into pot take aways.
>
>That is correct outside of the big cities. But definitely not for
>Amsterdam.

I misunderstood your post I thought you were saying it was the same in
Amsterdam.
Signature


Martin

Dr John Watson - 29 Jun 2008 08:20 GMT
Noticed at Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:25:39 +0100: Ian F. informed us:

>> The Health Ministry says the ban will apply to cafes that sell
>> marijuana, known as coffee shops.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Ian

The position is that tobacco is banned. However, cannabis is not covered
by the ban, so people will be allowed to smoke cannabis without tobacco.

Signature

Dr John Watson
Baker Street

sobriquet - 08 Jul 2008 07:48 GMT
>Noticed at Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:25:39 +0100: Ian F. informed us:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>The position is that tobacco is banned. However, cannabis is not covered
>by the ban, so people will be allowed to smoke cannabis without tobacco.

As a cannabis only smoker I don't really mind this ban. In fact, I
wouldn't mind it if they even applied it to smoking cannabis pure in
public as well (as long as vaporizers and spacecake in public are not
banned).
I think smoking in public places should be banned by default and the
exception should be separate spaces for smokers where adults can enjoy
smoke (either passively or actively) without imposing on people who
like to stay out of the smoke.
One issue that still hangs in the balance here in the netherlands is
whether small bars are allowed to dodge the smoking ban in case there
are no people working there and the owner of the bar smokes or doesn't
mind the smoke, since it would be virtually impossible for such small
bars to create a separate space for smokers.
Because this smoking ban is actually intended to protect people from
smoke in the workspace, so larger bars can section off a smoking space
where their staff doesn't serve food or drinks.
Rene R.F. Wildeman - 30 Jun 2008 06:36 GMT
No the smoking ban will be for everyone from 5 star hotel to brown
cafe.  Many of the small (one man) cafes in Holland complained as they
are afraid that the smoking bann will be the end of their business but
maybe that some people, like myself, will visit the cafes more as I
disliked these blue clouds of tobacco smoke

Rene

>> The Health Ministry says the ban will apply to cafes that sell
>> marijuana, known as coffee shops.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Ian
Mike..... - 01 Jul 2008 15:42 GMT
Following up to Rene R.F. Wildeman

> but
> maybe that some people, like myself, will visit the cafes more as I
> disliked these blue clouds of tobacco smoke

I think what happens is a lot of people like you and I say we dont like the
smoke but dont actually increase our visits enough to compensate for those
smokers staying home.
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Mike..... - 01 Jul 2008 15:47 GMT
Following up to Rene R.F. Wildeman

> will visit the cafes more as I
> disliked these blue clouds of tobacco smoke

this is from a rubbish newpaper but "the Restaurant" says the bans are
putting pubs "under pressure"

SCOTTISH pub bosses say they have been losing money and fear going out of
business because of a drop in trade since the smoking ban was imposed.

The Scottish Licensed Trade Association (SLTA) also fears that the
situation will get worse over the winter months.

Paul Waterson, chairman of the SLTA said: "Before the ban came in, we were
told it would be great for business. There would be hordes of people, who
wouldn’t normally come into smoky atmospheres, frequenting a pub.

“But the figures we will show prove that not to be the case by anybody’s
standards. It’s been bad for business at one of the best trading times of
the year."

Publicans have seen their takings drop in general but many are fighting
back by beefing up their food offerings as more and more people are tempted
back into licensed premises to eat now the fug has gone.

I think in the UK it will accelerate the conversion of pubs into semi
restaurants started by the start of drink driving awareness.
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VainGlorious - 02 Jul 2008 02:06 GMT
>Following up to Rene R.F. Wildeman
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>SCOTTISH pub bosses say they have been losing money and fear going out of
>business because of a drop in trade since the smoking ban was imposed.

I firmly believe that pubs and other businesses should have the right
to allow smoking on their premises. Rather than ban smoking, I would
prefer a regulatory system similar to alcohol, where smoking permits
must be obtained and councils can limit the number of permits. This
can act as a balance for the public, some of whom want a smoke-free
night out.

That said, I live in the US, in a state that has the most Draconian
smoking ban in the country (Washington state). Smoking was banned two
years ago. You are also forbidden from smoking within 25 feet (8
meters) of any doorway. Most smokers ignore the 25ft rule; it's never
enforced. As a consequence, the streets are full of rowdy smokers.

But to the point: hang in there, Scottish pub owners. The smoking ban
will hurt for a year or two. Statistics have shown that the lull in
business is temporary. They WILL come back.

I don't smoke, but I used to. I don't mind smoke, and I actually join
smokers outside sometimes just to socialize. I'd prefer that some bars
remained smoky. The true American dive bar is going extinct. It's a
sad thing.

- TR
Mike..... - 02 Jul 2008 07:45 GMT
Following up to VainGlorious

> I don't smoke, but I used to. I don't mind smoke, and I actually join
> smokers outside sometimes just to socialize. I'd prefer that some bars
> remained smoky. The true American dive bar is going extinct. It's a
> sad thing.

I was talking to a pub manager and suggested smoking bars with smoking
staff and his opinion was you couldnt recruit on that basis as it would be
regarded as pressureising staff to work with smoke. His attitude was thats
its not a new idea and had been ruled out as unworkable.
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Hackamore - 05 Jul 2008 10:05 GMT
>> Following up to Rene R.F. Wildeman
>>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> - TR

Hi,

Shelby County (tennessee, where Memphis is) has recently come up with a
WIDE smoking ban that is well accepted.

there is 1 "out" for a place that wants to allow smoking... be a "bar"
and not allow under 21 in...

I know of a couple of big pubs that just quit allowing the odd under
21'er in... there weren't many to start with... the odd kid with his/her
parents... they were loosing FAR more by not allowing smoking and
getting the odd hamburger and a root-beer (and yes they have real draft
root beer) sale than allowing smoking and serving over 21 only.

Signature

    >>>==>> Hackamore <<==<<<
    http://www.hackamore.com/
http://hackamoretravel.blogspot.com/

Don Wiss - 05 Jul 2008 21:34 GMT
>Shelby County (tennessee, where Memphis is) has recently come up with a
>WIDE smoking ban that is well accepted.
>
>there is 1 "out" for a place that wants to allow smoking... be a "bar"
>and not allow under 21 in...

But that does not protect the workers from second hand smoke. NYC has, or
was going to have, an exception for bars with no employees. Of course, a
place only run by the owner would have to be rather small.

Give me a few weeks and this anti-smoke tourist can report back what I
find.

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Mike..... - 01 Jul 2008 15:34 GMT
Following up to Hackamore

> The ban covers tobacco but not marijuana, which is technically illegal
> anyway.

could only happen there, great :-)
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MarioJano - 22 Jul 2008 21:55 GMT
Smoking inside stores such like 7-11 was voted against and made illegal in
Las Vegas, Nevada. I am not surprised they are doing the same for any public
places, except actual bars in Amsterdam. Smoking inside public places has
been illegal either ways in California, I was suprised that it was legal in
Nevada. Just because there are gambling machines in these certain places
does not give you the right to kill the children that enter such places to
purchase candies or toys. I was educated to not drink coffee either way when
I was a child, that it stuns your growth. I will not be suprised if in
Amsterdam they follow the same education, children shouldn't be drinking
coffee in the first place.

      Amado Castaneda

>  AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - This city's many fine coffee shops have faced
> many problems over the years and are still going strong. But, on July 1,
[quoted text clipped - 81 lines]
>
> Without coffee shops, he said, "a little bit of Amsterdam will die."
 
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