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Travel Forum / Travel Types / RV Travel / July 2008Choice of Motorhomes
If the fates don't frown, it looks like I may be buying that motorhome I've been boring you about this weekend. There are two possibilities. You've all had experience in shopping for these things. I'd be interested in your opinions on each, especially if you've had experience with either. 1. 1995 Jayco M-283. 28 feet long. On sale at dealer's lot, so I have no idea of how much pricing influence I have. Probably very little. NADA average retail lists at $14,349. The dealer is asking $16900. Extremely clean, everything works. Extra equipment: automatic leveling, CB radio. 20K miles, 200 hours on generator. Unit taken in trade from original owners, who bought a toyhauler trailer to carry kayaks. Two very comfortable lounge chairs, plus driver's and passenger's chairs also rotate around to living area (though it takes a little doing). Twin beds in back. Carpet in very good shape. Tires have lots of tread. No sign of leaks or softness in top, sides, or flooring. Top looks like it was kept inside since new. Ford 460 V8. I know nothing about this motor except that it moves the unit smartly and quietly. Comfortable to drive. I suspect it is a gas hog, of course. This unit was "sold" when I first looked at it last week, but apparently there was some problem, and it is back on the market. "Several people are looking at it." 2. 1999 Tioga M-F Ford. 26.5 feet long. For sale by original owner. NADA average retail lists at $22,838, owner asking $20,000. I have some reason to believe I can get it for $18K or thereabouts. Extremely clean, everything works. No visible problems. 11K miles on the odometer. Recently overhauled by dealer "at considerable cost" to repair flooring where freezing pipes caused a small flood inside. Floor "repaired", carpet removed, fake wood flooring installed in kitchen and living room. Good job, no sign of problems. I could detect no weakness or rot, even inside cabinets around pipes. She said there was formerly a small leak around the front vent above the overhang, causing discoloration of the fabric ceiling liner. This section of fabric was replaced by dealer and all seams on roof resealed by dealer. All these repairs were done about 6 months ago, after the frozen pipes incident. Ceiling is not soft behind fabric, and cushions and wood in overhang are not stained or visibly damaged. Everything appears new. Tires appear in good shape. This is one of those cases where a couple bought a small MH, drove it for years, upgraded to a new larger unit, and then immediately the husband got sick, stayed sick, and after several years died of lymphoma. The wife didn't want to sell right away. Now she does. This RV has been parked in a fenced storage lot in the open air for most of its life. I believe the 11K mileage to be accurate. The wife would not let her son or anybody else use it. It just sat there, waiting for her husband to get well. Ford V10. In contrast to the 460 V8 mentioned above, I am very experienced with this motor and transmission, as it is in my F250. In 126K miles, I have had no problems whatsoever. I don't think that's a fluke. If I have problems with this motor, I expect it will have to do with it not being driven much. On a test drive, it was powerful and quiet. Queen bed in back. One comfy chair behind passenger. Front seats are fixed, and do not turn to living area. One other design downside. The dinette behind the driver's seat prevents me from getting quite as far from the steering wheel as I'd like. The dinette back has a cut out from the factory to allow extra travel, but it's not quite enough for real comfort. It's possible I can cut it out further, but it's a hassle. I may have to redesign the dinette area. Here are eight pictures of an almost identical unit, except for curtains and the wood floor: http://www.bandlrvofsanpablo.com/detail.cfm?V=1999%7CTioga&ID=335337 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay, that's about it. I'm going back to see them both tomorrow. Both are bigger than I originally wanted. Both would do the job. They are quite similar in price and general condition, though not in age. Which would you buy? Bob Giddings >Which would you buy? Well, you asked. If you see all other features as more or less equal (or at least canceling each other out), I'd buy the first one, for this sole reason: The rotating front seats (or even just the passenger seat), while facing rearward, will make the interior look and feel much larger. In our Class B, having the passenger seat turned around seems to virtually double the usable interior space. I couldn't stand not to have that. It would feel cramped without it; with it, it seems almost spacious. Also remember that on either one you may need to replace the tires. Check the DOT dates.... GB in NC >>Which would you buy? > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >GB in NC Yes, I did ask. Thanks. I have thought there ought to be a way to convert the passenger chair in the Tioga. Lots of boat seat hardware that could accomplish that. But it's conjectural. I'll check the tires on both, haven't done that yet, except for tread. Bob >I have thought there ought to be a way >to convert the passenger chair in the Tioga. Lots of boat seat >hardware that could accomplish that. Lots of RV hardware too, I would imagine. The only potential problem is whether there's actually enough room to turn it around, even if it were so mounted. Ours is tight, but it works well. I turn it around and back with some frequency. It really does make a tremendous difference in space -- way out of proportion to what I would expect from such a simple feature. GB in NC (snip) > Okay, that's about it. I'm going back to see them both tomorrow. > Both are bigger than I originally wanted. Both would do the job. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Bob Giddings Bob, I would probably go for the Jayco. Less initial outlay of money. More options. No previous water damage. Front seats turn around. You didn't mention any generator information on the Tioga. How about the tires on the Tioga? They've been sitting for years you said. Besides all that, are you handy enough to redesign the dinette? Would that be a fun thing to do? Good luck! OM >(snip) >> Okay, that's about it. I'm going back to see them both tomorrow. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >thing to do? Good luck! >OM Thanks. I hate to pay more than blue book to a dealer. But the Jayco is better equipped, especially that (HWH??) leveling system and the chairs. I'm a little nervous about the 460 V8. Know nothing about it. Bob >I'm a little nervous about the 460 V8. Know nothing about it. Considering how long most big engines are built to last these days, I wouldn't worry much about any of them. You'll have a hard time driving it enough to wear it out. The 318 c.i. (5.2 liter) Dodge V-8 in our van has 186,000+ virtually untouched miles on it, and it runs like it always has -- and still gets the same mileage (14.1625 overall) as always. No oil consumption or leaks, no problems at all. It just goes and goes. I never think about engine maintenance except to change the oil and filter regularly, which I do myself. And I knew nothing at all about the various engines when we bought it. That was the vehicle we wanted, and that was the engine that was in it. GB in NC >> I'm a little nervous about the 460 V8. Know nothing about it. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > GB in NC I had a 460 in my '95 Winnie 34'. Never a problem but you will get used to going up steep hills in 2nd at 45 MPH, especially if you are towing something heavy like I was. Never an overheating problem like with 454s though. LZ >> (snip) >>> Okay, that's about it. I'm going back to see them both tomorrow. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Bob I would get the Jayco.. the added equip [levelers] is worth it.. The 460 is a long-proven motor.. more-so than the V-10.. should out last you with no probs.. IMHO You don't have to pay more than bluebook to a dealer.. they own that rig at something [substantially] less than lo book.. IMO Any sale with a 750-1,000 profit would be a welcome thing today.. Start at 500 over lo-- go up a bit to them to avoid a 'pissing contest' Don't tell them you have cash.. lead the to think you must finance it 100% though your credit union.. They know how much [little] the credit union will loan on it.. Auto business is the last good haggle opportunity we have.. I thought it was going to go away with the Saturn marketing concept, but now, I see the Saturn is the one going away... :) Just pretend your dealing with Linus.. it's you or them... :) Also.. if you miss this one.. it won't be a fatal error.. there are plenty more coming on the market every day.. Just my .01 cents worth..  SignatureOl' Gar and Mahoney... Workin' on the Hot-Rod Bus.. under the bridge.. down by the river.. "Life may not be the party we had hoped for, but as long as we are here we might as well dance" [sign on I-35 in South Dakota?] http://coltonmotorexpress.blogspot.com/ >1. 1995 Jayco M-283. 28 feet long. On sale at dealer's lot, so >I have no idea of how much pricing influence I have. Probably >very little. NADA average retail lists at $14,349. The dealer >is asking $16900. I am way out of my area of expertise here, but just based on general negotiating principles in a soft economy, offer $12 k. One of two things will happen. (1.) The dealer will get all pissed off and throw you off the lot, or (2.) the dealer will say, "you have got to be kidding, I could not take a penny less than ....." In that second case, serious negotiations are underway. >2. 1999 Tioga M-F Ford. 26.5 feet long. For sale by original >owner. NADA average retail lists at $22,838, owner asking [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Extremely clean, everything works. No visible problems. 11K >miles on the odometer. All of those leak problems, while fixed, would make me a little cautious. But probably it's fine. Again, make the first offer as low as you think the dealer can stand without he or she being insulted. Elliot Elliot Richmond Itinerant astronomy teacher >>1. 1995 Jayco M-283. 28 feet long. On sale at dealer's lot, so >>I have no idea of how much pricing influence I have. Probably [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Elliot Sounds like a plan. Main thing I have against the Jayco is the price. If he won't give, I have a backup plan. :o) After seeing the pergo floor in the other one, I must say I'd be tempted to put it in this one. Probably not $100 if I do it myself. Bob >Which would you buy? Neither. I hate motorhomes. Hunter >>Which would you buy? > >Neither. I hate motorhomes. > >Hunter Every now and then, it's just time for a change... Bob >Every now and then, it's just time for a change... > >Bob You're telling me <g> It's better to make a change for the better.... Hunter >>>Which would you buy? >> >>Neither. I hate motorhomes. >> >>Hunter >Every now and then, it's just time for a change... It's okay. I love my Class B as much as she loves her trailer <g>. GB in NC >>Which would you buy? > >Neither. I hate motorhomes. > >Hunter Come to think of it, that's a pretty strong statement. Do you mean that? Or do you just like your trailer more? Since you don't really "camp", it seems like motorhomes would be right up your alley... If you hate mhs, then there must be a reason. I'd like to know what that is. Bad luck with the one you had? Bob, who hates camping next to motorhomes, but doesn't mind being in them. >Come to think of it, that's a pretty strong statement. Do you >mean that? Or do you just like your trailer more? Since you [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Bob, who hates camping next to motorhomes, but doesn't mind being >in them. I hated it for a bunch of reasons. Stuff rattled in the cabinets while I was driving. The dash air wouldn't cool it so I had to run the generator and roof air going down the road... more noise. When I had the car hooked up I couldn't back it up.... without undoing the car, backing it up, then backing up the MH, then hook the car back up. I didn't like insuring and maintaining three, no five vehicles.... My Suburban, My 75 Eldorado convertible, my motorhome and my toad... a Ford Bronco II....and my horse van. It occurred to me that since I had a Suburban I should be pulling something, then I could use the Suburban to sightsee. I didn't like having a steering wheel in my living room.... I like getting out of the truck and going into the trailer... it makes the trailer seem more residential to me. I like being safer in my truck than I was in the motorhome. There was really nothing much that I liked about it, except it was very cool.... and collectible. Hunter >>Come to think of it, that's a pretty strong statement. Do you >>mean that? Or do you just like your trailer more? Since you [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > >Hunter Sounds more like a lifestyle issue. I don't mind the steering wheel as it means I don't have to go outside to get to the bathroom or kitchen. ;-) >I don't mind the steering wheel >as it means I don't have to go outside to get to the bathroom or >kitchen. ;-) I'm with you. I LIKE having my steering wheel (and everything else) under one roof and accessible. GB in NC >> I don't mind the steering wheel >> as it means I don't have to go outside to get to the bathroom or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > GB in NC It's just a "gurl" thing ya know.. sheesh.. she couldn't possibly understand.. with the MH we get more gauges/gadgets in one place.. I'd hate to have to go out to the truck just to gaze at all my 'cool' gages and gizmo's... 'sides.. I'd look weird just sitting there w/o going nowhere... :) SignatureOl' Gar and Mahoney... Workin' on the Hot-Rod Bus.. under the bridge.. down by the river.. "Life may not be the party we had hoped for, but as long as we are here we might as well dance" [sign on I-35 in South Dakota?] http://coltonmotorexpress.blogspot.com/ >Sounds more like a lifestyle issue. I don't mind the steering wheel >as it means I don't have to go outside to get to the bathroom or >kitchen. ;-) Going outside isn't a bad thing, to me. Hunter >>Come to think of it, that's a pretty strong statement. Do you >>mean that? Or do you just like your trailer more? Since you [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > >Hunter That's a pretty good list. And I have to agree with most of it, to one extent or another. Dunno what a "collectible" motorhome is, though. These are the two pretty deadly points: >Stuff rattled in the cabinets while I was driving. > >The dash air wouldn't cool it so I had to run the generator and roof >air going down the road... more noise. I'd hate that too. In return I'd get a smaller footprint without a toad... and more toys along when I take one. I've been operating on the idea of a motorhome as a truck camper that's safe to drive. I really liked my truck camper, when I wasn't driving it. That's why I started looking at "small" motorhomes. Lack of inventory got me to looking at bigger ones. Maybe that's not a good enough reason.... Bob > That's a pretty good list. And I have to agree with most of it, > to one extent or another. Dunno what a "collectible" motorhome [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>The dash air wouldn't cool it so I had to run the generator and roof >>air going down the road... more noise. Hunter hauls a small animal shelter around with her, and needs to keep the whole she-bang cool for them ... we have only had to run our house air while in AZ in July ... for most driving, the dash air will keep the driver and passenger comfortable. Any rattles can be eliminated, just secure items carefully. Dishes, classes and such need paper, or something, but the silverware drawer is a lost cause LOL only way to keep IT quiet is take it out, and place in a bay! Cliff in TN - > I'd hate that too. In return I'd get a smaller footprint without > a toad... and more toys along when I take one. I've been [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Bob Signaturethe Bride said to me, "We've been through a LOT together, and most of it was Your fault!" >> That's a pretty good list. And I have to agree with most of it, >> to one extent or another. Dunno what a "collectible" motorhome [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >while in AZ in July ... for most driving, the dash air will keep the driver >and passenger comfortable. And, of course, she dredges up 10-15 year old information and presents it as current. I forgot to add in my previous post, Bob. Both my and my mom's MH came with a curtain behind the seats that when pulled, isolated the driver's compartment from the rest of the rig. With those curtains pulled, the AC is only having to cool a 2 seat passenger compartment, a trivial task. If your rig doesn't have curtains, you can easily install them. I use mine mainly in the winter to keep cold drafts off my feet. Very occasionally used in the summer when the outside is 100+ and even my hopped up dash AC struggles. Mom's much larger system had no problem at all. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN What do you call a blonde's dildo? Pneumatic tool. >These are the two pretty deadly points: > >>Stuff rattled in the cabinets while I was driving. That's just a matter of packing things right. Rubber drawer liner between each china plate, stuff light that. Either I've totally eliminated rattle or I'm used to it because I don't notice it at all. I think I've eliminated the rattles because when a stove grate occasionally rattles it drives me bat-sh*t until I can pull over and fix it. >>The dash air wouldn't cool it so I had to run the generator and roof >>air going down the road... more noise. That was an issue in some rigs in the 80s and back but modern dash ACs can cool the whole RV in the sizes you're looking at. I have to have it cold to sleep. Many a time my mom would drive while I slept on the couch. The dash air kept me cool and comfortable. My 82 had that issue until I hopped up the AC. Larger compressor, condenser that spans the whole width of the grill, equipped with electric fans and a homemade inverter to feed the dash fan 18 volts. Now it cools better than late model rigs. Heck, it's summer time right now. Test drive your candidate vehicles and see if this is a problem. It won't be. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN A few harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction. >>These are the two pretty deadly points: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >John I've talked to a number of owners in my quest, and AC adequacy always comes up. The methodology I hear over and over again is that when setting off in summer, you go out an hour or so before leaving and fire up the overhead AC to cool the whole place down. Then when traveling, the dash AC does very well just keeping up with subsequent heat intrusion. But not so well if it has to overcome the heat built up over days in the driveway. Sounds like a plan to me. Bob Bob It sounds like the money is just burning a hole in your pocket to buy something? Probably the last time you slept in a twin bed was either in the military, or down at the firehouse! You'll probably end up sleeping on a mattress on the floor, and store it rolled up on the twin bed? Time is on your side! Don't be in a rush to buy! You know how awful "buyers remorse" can be! Decide exactly what you want, then put an ad on craigslist, and everything else like it! It will come to you! BTW, what do you have in mind for your next adventure? Don http://www.donlampson.com >Bob > It sounds like the money is just burning a hole in your pocket to buy [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >http://www.donlampson.com I think you are right. Both these are too big. I'm gonna wait a bit. As for adventure, this is it! Impressive, huh? Bob > Bob > It sounds like the money is just burning a hole in your pocket to buy [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > http://www.donlampson.com If you have a set of twin beds, and a twin bed is: ------------------------------------------- One of a matching pair of single beds. ------------------------------------------- and it is, and one of them burns to the ground, and the ashes are flushed down the drain, do you still have a twin bed? Why? If you buy a twin bed at the Habitat ReStore, is it still a twin bed when you get it home? Why? Signaturebill Theory don't mean squat if it don't work. >> Bob >> It sounds like the money is just burning a hole in your pocket to [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > If you buy a twin bed at the Habitat ReStore, is it still a twin bed > when you get it home? Why? If you're born at the same time, from the same mother, are you a twin? If your sibling dies are you still a twin? If, in an unusual circumstance, two eggs are fertilized by sperm from two different "donors", will the offspring be twins? Max >>> Bob >>> It sounds like the money is just burning a hole in your pocket to buy [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Max Hey. I don't need any more damquestions - I was looking for Answers. Signaturebill Theory don't mean squat if it don't work. >I've talked to a number of owners in my quest, and AC adequacy >always comes up. Have these been Class A or Class C owners? I've seen some REALLY half-assed AC systems in As where the coach manufacturer instead of the chassis manufacturer designed the duct work. Class Cs are a bit different. >The methodology I hear over and over again is >that when setting off in summer, you go out an hour or so before [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Sounds like a plan to me. I always have my rig powered up and the AC on while I'm prepping for a trip so the inside is cool. That does work. However, once you arrive somewhere, park the rig and go off to do your thing, all that pre-cooling is gone. When you arrive back, the rig is heat-soaked again. In mom's small rig with the full-sized truck/van AC system engineered by Ford and not Four Winds, that was not a problem. Crank the engine when you get in and by the time you have your seatbelt on and your drink in the cupholder, the AC's cold. Whenever I drive the rig to someplace, say, Outdoor World, where I'm going to be gone for awhile, I simply crank the genny and leave the roof air on. The rig is cool and comfortable when I return. I'm usually tired and/or hungry so I generally spend a little time in the back before proceeding. Nap, eat, that kind of stuff. In my Itasca, one generator control panel is on the overhead between the seats. In very hot weather, I'll reach up and crank the genny a little while before I get to where I' going so the entire rig will be nice and cool when I stop. That's about the only time that I run the genny for cooling while underway. If you were looking at a 30 ft class A then I'd recommend being concerned. But you're not. You're looking at little more than a large van that is equipped from the factory with an AC to match. It'll keep you cool and comfy. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN There are only 10 types of people in this world Those who understand binary and those who don't. >Come to think of it, that's a pretty strong statement. Do you >mean that? Or do you just like your trailer more? Since you >don't really "camp", it seems like motorhomes would be right up >your alley... Why even care? Only the blonde bimbo would say something like that in a thread you started to help you choose one or the other. Sounds like she needs her cranial air pressure checked. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN *fas-cism* (fash'iz'em) n. A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism. -- The American Heritage Dictionary, 1983 > 2. 1999 Tioga M-F Ford. 26.5 feet long. For sale by original > owner. NADA average retail lists at $22,838, owner asking [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > Bob Giddings Hi! my original idea was number one but I think I'd take the tioga. You gain 4 years for $3-4000. 460's have been around a long time (I had an 83 28ft mh with one) and other than some early manifold problems (in the 80's) they run well. I expect from your previous trips that you will mostly be alone so the shorter length and one less chair shouldn't be a problem. It does fit the length you wrote about in earlier threads. My biggest concern would be how long it has been sitting in storage, as is often said here a lack of use may be detrimental to a mh. Afterthought: does the dealer offer any service or warranty which the private sale won't. Al >> Which would you buy? >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >private sale won't. >Al Thanks, Al. I'm going to check the tires on both. If the Jayco has newer tires, that makes a difference. I'm pretty sure the Tioga has the original tires. Probably a thousand dollars for new tires. Bob > Okay, that's about it. I'm going back to see them both tomorrow. > Both are bigger than I originally wanted. Both would do the job. > They are quite similar in price and general condition, though not > in age. > > Which would you buy? I would buy the Jayco. I don't care how many dealers and how much was spent on those 2 leaks, *there were* leaks and you will not be able to see some places that could have been affected. The ability to move the seat to a more comfortable position is not just a matter of comfort, but also a safety issue. You understand that, right? The HWH jacks are, IMHO, a big plus. It is not fun driving on and off lumber piles to level a rig as you must know from your trailering days. If you do buy it, make sure the dealer has checked the hydraulic fluid and that you know where to check and refill the fluid, too. Some of these manufacturers put the stuff in the weirdest places. The construction, IMHO, of the older Jayco will be superior to the newer Tioga. Tiogas are mostly marketed to young families and rental companies. Most of the rental class C's are Tiogas. They cost less than Jaycos to begin with. In other words, you are not getting a "newer MH" for less money. One more thing to think about is how the Jayco has held its value. The dealer knows this, too, which is why he's slightly over-priced it. The dealer will have to make good on any problems that arise in the first 30 days (unless you can negotiate 90 days). You are also protected by "merchantability" meaning that if it turns out within the first week to be a piece of crap, you have legal recourse. The private owner will cash your check. If you have a problem are you going to go back to the grieving widow? I think not. Cover Thine a.s As for price, I think this is the proper time to become aggressive. First, remind that salesman that he already lost one customer and you will have no problem with financing. Second, remind the salesman that RVs are hardly selling like hotcakes these days and you *know* that he is suffering under large lot fees with nothing moving very rapidly. As another poster suggested, offer $12,000 and see where that goes. Remind him that you will have to replace all the tires as they are outdated (just guessing, but I'll bet I'm right) If you decide to go with a class C, make sure you pack the cupboards carefully otherwise you will hear every little rattle and jangle while going down the road. And the last thing: be really sure you want a motorhome. I thought I did, but I never liked it. You were in it and you know how beautiful it was, but I was much happier in the truck and trailer. > > Okay, that's about it. I'm going back to see them both tomorrow. >> Both are bigger than I originally wanted. Both would do the job. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >I would buy the Jayco. I'm leaning that way. >I don't care how many dealers and how much was spent on those 2 leaks, >*there were* leaks and you will not be able to see some places that >could have been affected. > >The ability to move the seat to a more comfortable position is not just >a matter of comfort, but also a safety issue. You understand that, right? How so? You mean if I am not completely comfortable I might veer wildly into oncoming traffic? Are you talking about a maddened passenger going postal? >The HWH jacks are, IMHO, a big plus. It is not fun driving on and off >lumber piles to level a rig as you must know from your trailering days. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > One more thing to think about is how the Jayco has held its value. The >dealer knows this, too, which is why he's slightly over-priced it. It's not "slightly", unless you are speaking in absolute terms. $3K-5K too high. >The dealer will have to make good on any problems that arise in the >first 30 days (unless you can negotiate 90 days). You are also protected [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >did, but I never liked it. You were in it and you know how beautiful it >was, but I was much happier in the truck and trailer. All very good advice. Thanks, Janet. Have you got any eyewitness account of your home yet? Bob >> > Okay, that's about it. I'm going back to see them both tomorrow. >>> Both are bigger than I originally wanted. Both would do the job. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > wildly into oncoming traffic? Are you talking about a maddened > passenger going postal? If you can't sit in a comfortable driving position, you might not be a totally safe driver, especially on long hauls. >> One more thing to think about is how the Jayco has held its value. The >> dealer knows this, too, which is why he's slightly over-priced it. > > It's not "slightly", unless you are speaking in absolute terms. > $3K-5K too high. <g> I guess that is a bit more than 'slightly' > All very good advice. Thanks, Janet. Have you got any > eyewitness account of your home yet? Bill drove by yesterday and said the water was all the way up to the garage but he didn't see any damage. He couldn't get to the house, too much water in the road. Neighbor who has the keys and watches our place called today. We were in the mountains on the Cumbres & Toltec Railroad so I got a voice mail. Her phone is still out and she doesn't have a cell phone so she called on her Onstar phone from her car. She said we had some fence damage and will have to replace one of the screen doors on the screen porch. She said they will have to replace their entire roof. She does have electricity, but the wireless is still out. I am assuming he came over on his little tractor. That's all I know for now. I guess we got off pretty easy. Some people in Harlingen still have no power. >>> > Okay, that's about it. I'm going back to see them both tomorrow. >>>> Both are bigger than I originally wanted. Both would do the job. [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >I guess we got off pretty easy. Some people in Harlingen still have no >power. If you got past that with only a ruined screen door, you did good. I'm glad you were able to get some good info from Bill and your neighbor. Now maybe you can relax a little, enjoy all those steam train cinders in your face. :o) Bob > If you got past that with only a ruined screen door, you did > good. I am really grateful to have sacrificed a screen door and some fencing to the weather gods who have spared my home. > I'm glad you were able to get some good info from Bill and your > neighbor. Now maybe you can relax a little, enjoy all those > steam train cinders in your face. :o) Pecos Bill is my hero. The train ride was awesome. Gorgeous scenery. So nice to be looking at the tall pines, cedars and aspens. Saw lots of wildflowers, too. The rain (remnant of Dolly) didn't come until the ride was almost over. It's raining in Chama right now. We are heading to Amarillo in the morning (isn't that a song?)We should be home some time on Tuesday. I did ride on the open car for a little while, but no cinders. They said they have an eye wash on board if someone got a cinder in their eye. Bob I didn't mean the adventure you're having, on a day to day basis! I meant the adventure you are going to undertake in the new motorhome - When you get it? Besides, tending the BBQ, under the shade of pecan trees, with a highball in your hand is nothing to sneeze at! You've got "la dolce vida" - right by the short hairs! There's plenty of poor scutters working like dogs, just hoping they'll get their issue of what you already have, in their "golden years!" It sounds like you're a bit jaded, with your success in life? Don http://www.donlampson.com >Bob > I didn't mean the adventure you're having, on a day to day basis! [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >http://www.donlampson.com I'm not jaded. But I did get a little turquoised after some bad menudo last week... Bob, who will admit to bored. Bob you might want to wander through the consignments listed over to www.rvonline.com and take a gander at what is listed. I see that there is a 24 ft 2001 Born Free located in NC that looks like what you are dreaming about...priced at $29,900. Back to lurking....Fran >Bob you might want to wander through the consignments listed over to >www.rvonline.com and take a gander at what is listed. I see that there is a >24 ft 2001 Born Free located in NC that looks like what you are dreaming >about...priced at $29,900. > >Back to lurking....Fran thanks, I've looked there. And that's over my budget. Bob, still looking. >> If you got past that with only a ruined screen door, you did >> good. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I did ride on the open car for a little while, but no cinders. They said >they have an eye wash on board if someone got a cinder in their eye. I stayed in a nice little shady campground next to the train station in Chama a couple of times. I never rode the train, but I did cover most of it's route by road. Good New Mexican food in that town. I think the restaurant was called Amelia's. Bob > >> If you got past that with only a ruined screen door, you did > >> good. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I did cover most of it's route by road. Good New Mexican food in > that town. I think the restaurant was called Amelia's. Vera's. :-) >> >> If you got past that with only a ruined screen door, you did >> >> good. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Vera's. :-) Right. Thanks. I knew it was something with an A in it. :o) > I stayed in a nice little shady campground next to the train > station in Chama a couple of times. I never rode the train, but > I did cover most of it's route by road. Good New Mexican food in > that town. I think the restaurant was called Amelia's. Didn't see any restaurant by that name but there was a Mexican restaurant with a lady's name and it was closed. There were quite a few closed restaurants. The woman where we ate last night said they can't get anyone to run the restaurants. We are now in Amarillo. Palo Duro tomorrow then we'll see how far we get. We'll be in San Antonio on Monday and home Tuesday. >The HWH jacks are, IMHO, a big plus. It is not fun driving on and off >lumber piles to level a rig as you must know from your trailering days. >If you do buy it, make sure the dealer has checked the hydraulic fluid >and that you know where to check and refill the fluid, too. Some of >these manufacturers put the stuff in the weirdest places. This is a matter that has preyed on my mind somewhat. As a fifth wheel owner, I am used to semi-automatic leveling. That is, back the low side over some boards, drop the front props to equal height from the ground, and power up till the bubble says stop. Pretty fuss-free, and takes very little time. Auto levelers are even better, from what I've seen. Klunk, klunk, whirrr, plop, and "pass the martinis, dear". But manually leveling a motor home of any considerable length might be maddening. First you have the low side back-wheels-over-the-boards thing. Then you have the fact that most sites slope away from the road. So after you have it side to side level, you've got to drive back off and get it right front to back, which means more boards, which throws off the first boards, driving back and forth multiple times, etc. Then, if you don't have a toad, you've got to repeat the performance several times a day, if you want to go and see anything. I can see how this could be endlessly entertaining for people looking on. And you can't just ignore it, most places, because it is precisely the front to back level that affects refrigerators (on the vehicle, side to side on the fridge itself). On the bright side, by the time you get that drink, you really appreciate it. So the auto leveler is more of a plus than it appears at first. Bob >If the fates don't frown, it looks like I may be buying that >motorhome I've been boring you about this weekend. There are two [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >very little. NADA average retail lists at $14,349. The dealer >is asking $16900. >2. 1999 Tioga M-F Ford. 26.5 feet long. For sale by original >owner. NADA average retail lists at $22,838, owner asking >$20,000. I have some reason to believe I can get it for $18K or >thereabouts. Hard decision there, Bob. The dealer has moxie on the first one, trying to get more than NADA in these times. I bet $10-12k would take it. My personal bias is to the smaller one. It'll be much easier to get in and out of places like a large van than the longer one. I do like the 460 though. Mom's 24 ft rig had that engine and it moved right on out. About 12mpg driving 65-70 on the interstate. The weak spot is the transmission. You might recall my story of the overdrive planetary exploding as I dropped off a freeway ramp on Detroit a few years ago and the 6 days spent in the transmission shop parking lot as a result. The transmission shop guy told me that he fixes a lot of those transmissions in motorhomes. No experience on the V10. I wonder how the mileage would compare? My first impression would be that it'd be worse, but the miracle of modern electronics can probably cover the extra friction of the two extra cylinders. It doesn't sound like either would be a bad setup. If you decide that you don't like motorhoming, you could probably come close to getting your money back, especially on the second one. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Some people are like a Slinky .. not really good for anything but you still smile when you shove them down the stairs. >>If the fates don't frown, it looks like I may be buying that >>motorhome I've been boring you about this weekend. There are two [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > >John Thanks, John. I've had nothing but good luck with the V10, and get 8-10 mpg hauling the trailer. Your report of 12 with the V8 encourages me to think the engines are similar in terms of mileage. Both are certainly powerful enough. I found some horrifying reports on the web of 5 to 6 mpg with a 460 on older motorhomes. But there's so many variables that I couldn't find direct comparisons. The leveling system has me leaning to the Jayco. The twin beds and the size are against it. The size has me leaning to the Tioga. The driving position is against it. Maybe I just haven't found the right vehicle yet. What I want is a 22 footer with a Queen bed, a comfy chair, a roomy shower, and 15 mpg. No luck so far. :o) Bob >Maybe I just haven't found the right vehicle yet. What I want is >a 22 footer with a Queen bed, a comfy chair, a roomy shower, and >15 mpg. No luck so far. :o) Here's an interesting RV someone did on my Airstream list. He took an Airstream Bambi and married it to a truck... Here's a photo on my list homepage... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirstreamList Hunter >>Maybe I just haven't found the right vehicle yet. What I want is >>a 22 footer with a Queen bed, a comfy chair, a roomy shower, and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Hunter THAT'S IT! bet i can't afford it... >THAT'S IT! > >bet i can't afford it... LOL, I wish I knew what it cost... the trailer alone is in the 30s.... Hunter >>> Maybe I just haven't found the right vehicle yet. What I want is >>> a 22 footer with a Queen bed, a comfy chair, a roomy shower, and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > bet i can't afford it... That looks a little low to the ground for your type of camping. Signaturebill Theory don't mean squat if it don't work. >>> Maybe I just haven't found the right vehicle yet. What I want is >>> a 22 footer with a Queen bed, a comfy chair, a roomy shower, and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > bet i can't afford it... I'd want more and bigger windows. LZ >>Maybe I just haven't found the right vehicle yet. What I want is >>a 22 footer with a Queen bed, a comfy chair, a roomy shower, and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Hunter Wow, that's a slick looking rig. And the truck appears to be a Benz Sprinter. If was done by an individual, he or she is apparently a skill craftsperson. I saw a rig in Big Bend National Park maybe 10 years ago. It was not as slick as this one, but sure looked functional. The owner had bolted an Airstream to the bed of a Freightliner. The "trailer" looked like it was about 25 feet long. One had to climb a short flight of stairs to get to the door. Elliot Richmond Itinerant astronomy teacher >I saw a rig in Big Bend National Park maybe 10 years ago. It was not >as slick as this one, but sure looked functional. The owner had bolted >an Airstream to the bed of a Freightliner. The "trailer" looked like >it was about 25 feet long. One had to climb a short flight of stairs >to get to the door. I have a photo of that rig. Hunter >>I saw a rig in Big Bend National Park maybe 10 years ago. It was not >>as slick as this one, but sure looked functional. The owner had bolted [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Hunter On your website? I too have a photo somewhere, but I can't find it. Elliot Elliot Richmond Itinerant astronomy teacher >On your website? I too have a photo somewhere, but I can't find it. > >Elliot No, in my computer. I can email it to you if you'd like. Hunter >> On your website? I too have a photo somewhere, but I can't find it. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Hunter Why don't all you people who're emailing pics just put 'em on tinypic so others can see 'em too. If they want to see 'em. http://tinypic.com/ About the easiest way I know of to quickstick up a pic for others to see in a nopic newsgroup. Signaturebill Theory don't mean squat if it don't work. >Why don't all you people who're emailing pics just put 'em on tinypic so >others can see 'em too. If they want to see 'em. >http://tinypic.com/ Very cool site, I had never heard of it. Here's the "Peterstream" http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ehg18g&s=4 Then here's another one I had... I call it Fordstream http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=11r4nwx&s=4 Hunter >> Why don't all you people who're emailing pics just put 'em on tinypic so >> others can see 'em too. If they want to see 'em. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ehg18g&s=4 Looks like a tanker truck with windows. LZ > Then here's another one I had... I call it Fordstream > > http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=11r4nwx&s=4 > > Hunter >>> Why don't all you people who're emailing pics just put 'em on tinypic so >>> others can see 'em too. If they want to see 'em. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Looks like a tanker truck with windows. I should have your response before I posted - I wrote almost the exact thing, word for word. Bruce >>>> Why don't all you people who're emailing pics just put 'em on tinypic so >>>> others can see 'em too. If they want to see 'em. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Bruce Noted. :) LZ >>> Why don't all you people who're emailing pics just put 'em on tinypic >>> so others can see 'em too. If they want to see 'em. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Looks like a tanker truck with windows. > LZ I was thinking converted propane truck. Signaturebill Theory don't mean squat if it don't work. >>>> Why don't all you people who're emailing pics just put 'em on >>>> tinypic so others can see 'em too. If they want to see 'em. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I was thinking converted propane truck. Sandblasted? LZ >>Why don't all you people who're emailing pics just put 'em on tinypic so >>others can see 'em too. If they want to see 'em. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ehg18g&s=4 Looks almost like a tanker truck, but with windows, Bruce >Here's the "Peterstream" > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=11r4nwx&s=4 Amazing. The "Peterstream" looks very similar to the one I saw except that the one I saw had a red cab. Apparently there are more than two of these conversions out there. Who'da thunk it. Elliot Elliot Richmond Itinerant astronomy teacher >Amazing. The "Peterstream" looks very similar to the one I saw except >that the one I saw had a red cab. Apparently there are more than two >of these conversions out there. Who'da thunk it. That is amazing... have you seen the Toronado one? http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=5uh4co&s=4 This isn't Photoshopped. Hunter > Why don't all you people who're emailing pics just put 'em on tinypic so > others can see 'em too. If they want to see 'em. The Shark is patiently waiting for boarding time. 1988 http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=5p0dnq&s=4> LZ >>>Maybe I just haven't found the right vehicle yet. What I want is >>>a 22 footer with a Queen bed, a comfy chair, a roomy shower, and [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >Elliot Richmond >Itinerant astronomy teacher I had a heavy old self contained truck camper back in the '80s that I drove all over Colorado. I sold it to a guy who hauled it off on a small flatbed trailer made from a pickup bed. He said he was going to use it that way. Looked pretty tippy to me, despite the straps. But he paid in cash and managed to motor on out of sight. So I was not one to complain. bob > I had a heavy old self contained truck camper back in the '80s > that I drove all over Colorado. I sold it to a guy who hauled it > off on a small flatbed trailer made from a pickup bed. He said > he was going to use it that way. > > Looked pretty tippy to me, despite the straps. A couple who arrived in Why, AZ with a tent bought a contraption like that. They didn't make it far down the road before they ended up in the bushes when the trailer started swaying. A flatbed wrecker brought them back and a local welder modified the trailer and installed some type of no-sway hitch on an old LTD they bought. LZ >> Maybe I just haven't found the right vehicle yet. What I want is >> a 22 footer with a Queen bed, a comfy chair, a roomy shower, and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Hunter Boy.. that is a sweet combination.. Have him come by here and I will radius those rear wheelwells and kick the aesthetics up a notch... :) I would also add a little MBZ 'Smart Car' for a toad.... SignatureOl' Gar and Mahoney... Workin' on the Hot-Rod Bus.. under the bridge.. down by the river.. "Life may not be the party we had hoped for, but as long as we are here we might as well dance" [sign on I-35 in South Dakota?] http://coltonmotorexpress.blogspot.com/ >> Maybe I just haven't found the right vehicle yet. What I want is >> a 22 footer with a Queen bed, a comfy chair, a roomy shower, and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Hunter Are they still married? That would be a nasty breakup. SignatureFrank Howell >>> Maybe I just haven't found the right vehicle yet. What I want is >>> a 22 footer with a Queen bed, a comfy chair, a roomy shower, and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Are they still married? That would be a nasty breakup. Maybe a light bulb will go on at Airstream? LZ >Are they still married? That would be a nasty breakup. Yep, still in the honeymoon phase. Hunter >>> If the fates don't frown, it looks like I may be buying that >>> motorhome I've been boring you about this weekend. There are two [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Bob Bob My 1990 Tioga (460 V-8) gets 7 mpg. I have replaced the awning, genset, and refrigerator(rebuilt) Also remember that a Tioga is considered and entry level rig. It appears that the V-10 gets better milage from reports that I have seen. I would go with the newest that I could afford and the one with the better overall reputation. I think you get more bang-for-the-buck with a truck-trailer combination, but with the MH you get added convenience of; if you're driving a long distance and get tired you can pull into a rest stop and crash without leaving your rig. Very nice especially if it's raining. I have been to campgrounds where the very best scenic sites are open due to the fact they are 30 feet in length or less, right next to a river. SignatureFrank Howell >My 1990 Tioga (460 V-8) gets 7 mpg. I have replaced the awning, genset, and >refrigerator(rebuilt) Also remember that a Tioga is considered and entry >level rig. It appears that the V-10 gets better milage from reports that I >have seen. >I would go with the newest that I could afford and the one with the better >overall reputation. That's the choice, all right. I've about decided that both are a good deal if I was looking for something that long. But I'd like something shorter. And I'm in no hurry. My favorite so far is a 1987 Born Free 23 footer. But the generator won't stay on, and the 460 had a 4 barrel, so the mileage has to suck. Plus give problems at altitude. Plus it's just plain old, and various latches and switches have worn out. It's sort of a project more than a ride. But a wonderful layout. >I think you get more bang-for-the-buck with a truck-trailer combination, but >with the MH you get added convenience of; if you're driving a long distance >and get tired you can pull into a rest stop and crash without leaving your >rig. Very nice especially if it's raining. >I have been to campgrounds where the very best scenic sites are open due to >the fact they are 30 feet in length or less, right next to a river. I know. I usually stuff my truck and trailer in there anyhow. Thanks, Frank. Bob >My favorite so far is a 1987 Born Free 23 footer. But the >generator won't stay on, and the 460 had a 4 barrel, so the >mileage has to suck. Plus give problems at altitude. > >Plus it's just plain old, and various latches and switches have >worn out. It's sort of a project more than a ride. What kind of price? John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Democracy is three wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper. >>My favorite so far is a 1987 Born Free 23 footer. But the >>generator won't stay on, and the 460 had a 4 barrel, so the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >John $9600. Blue book is $6000. Plus, the fridge didn't seem to be getting cold. She bought this last winter up in Lubbock, went on one camping trip hauling her horse trailer, had some trouble, and now thinks she's in over her head but can get out all she put into it plus. Believe it or not, she paid somebody $600 to put in a new converter. I tried to find out the brand and type, but then we got distracted by the fact you have to start the generator from outside. And then it wouldn't start there. And the house battery went dead. It drove all right, if you don't mind a flapping back window. The steering needs work, though. Kind of vague and sloppy. Though as I remember some of that was normal for the late '80s model Fords. Dodge had that feel at some point too. Lots of play before something happened. Could use shocks and a steering stabilizer. Tires look okay, but age is a mystery predating her ownership. 59K miles on the odometer. Accelerated well up 55, seemed to lose oomph after that. But that may be the cam. I could go on. Lots of little stuff. OTOH, the cabin was in good shape, and the layout is about as good as it gets in 23 feet. Couch/bed, two comfy chairs with a table between, and an overhead Queen accessible by ladder. Rear bath. I didn't really do a complete inspection, sort of lost interest as things mounted up and the generator wouldn't start. It was at the beginning of my Quest, and I had three others to look at that day. I'm still tempted to go look at it again, spend half a day looking and making a list, make a lowball bid, find an Onan guy to overhaul the generator, do the steering stuff myself. She called without prompting last night to say the fridge seemed to be working now. But she couldn't say if it worked on gas, though it did last winter. Lots of vagueness and ignorance, which may be hiding surprises. That's the scene. But it was a quality coach when new, well thought out, no leaks. Nice woodwork. A complete renovation might take $500, might take $5000. A new Onan can be a couple of thou, fridge $1200, mechanicals and tires ???. Bob >>>My favorite so far is a 1987 Born Free 23 footer. But the >>>generator won't stay on, and the 460 had a 4 barrel, so the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >now thinks she's in over her head but can get out all she put >into it plus. Thanks. I was wondering what a Born Free that old would go for. Even book seems quite a bit high. Sounds like that woman's going to own a motorhome for a long time :-) John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN You can't turn [MS] shovelware into reliable software by patching it a whole lot. -Marcus Ranum >>>>My favorite so far is a 1987 Born Free 23 footer. But the >>>>generator won't stay on, and the 460 had a 4 barrel, so the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >John Well, it is a very good unit for its age. Its age is 22 years, though. Hell, even I was in pretty good shape 22 years ago. There's nothing wrong with it that can't be fixed. Just takes money and determination. Nothing compared to what Gar is doing. Bob Hi! I had an 83 460 ford c class with the 4 barrel carb. Mileage was 7-8 mpg with the 3 speed trans. Friend with a similar rig only a 90 with FI and a 4 speed got 10. The Born Free are nice looking well-made machines .Al >>>>>My favorite so far is a 1987 Born Free 23 footer. But the >>>>>generator won't stay on, and the 460 had a 4 barrel, so the [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Bob Hi! again. I'm currently driving an 87 RoadTrek (all that will fit in my apartment parking lot) with a carbed 318 and a 3 speed which gives me around 14mpg. Nice thing about it is I can actually do my own maintenance. All the rv stuff works well. Al >>>>>My favorite so far is a 1987 Born Free 23 footer. But the >>>>>generator won't stay on, and the 460 had a 4 barrel, so the [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Bob >>>>My favorite so far is a 1987 Born Free 23 footer. But the >>>>generator won't stay on, and the 460 had a 4 barrel, so the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >John Here's some pictures, if I can make tinypics work right: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2utn67b&s=4 http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cr4oxj&s=4 http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=5f1xyg&s=4 bob >My 1990 Tioga (460 V-8) gets 7 mpg. Say, Frank, how big is your Tioga? Do you have the 4 barrel? Bob >>My 1990 Tioga (460 V-8) gets 7 mpg. > >Say, Frank, how big is your Tioga? Do you have the 4 barrel? > >Bob I'm not Frank, well I'm frank but not capitalised, nevermind... Ford 460 V8 in '89 and '90 came with throttle body fuel injection. Electronic fuel injection began in '91. I get 9 - 10 mpg in my 460 V8. Once I got 11 but that could have been from a filling discrepancy... Ginger >I'm not Frank, well I'm frank but not capitalised, nevermind... You sound earnest as well.... GB in NC >>I'm not Frank, well I'm frank but not capitalised, nevermind... > >You sound earnest as well.... Well yeah, but I can be fun too.<g> Ginger >> My 1990 Tioga (460 V-8) gets 7 mpg. > > Say, Frank, how big is your Tioga? Do you have the 4 barrel? > > Bob 22 ft, and it's FI. I have gotten 8 MPG at times. At 22 ft there is no permanent bed. But since I am 5'9" the overhead works for me. SignatureFrank Howell |
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