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Travel Forum / Travel Types / RV Travel / August 2008Open Office
I just got a come-on for Open Office from Java, via an automatic "update" routine. A one click down load. I know some of you use this. My question is whether there is any reason NOT to try it out in a VISTA environment. I don't want to experiment my way into a bunch of headaches. I already have Microsoft Office, in a fairly recent vintage. So I don't NEED Open Office. But I am curious. So, any conflicts you know of between Open Office and Vista? Bob > I just got a come-on for Open Office from Java, via an automatic > "update" routine. A one click down load. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Bob I can't answer any of your questions, but if I had your concerns, I'd clone my HD, and then try it.  Signaturebill Theory don't mean squat if it don't work. >> I just got a come-on for Open Office from Java, via an automatic >> "update" routine. A one click down load. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I can't answer any of your questions, but if I had your concerns, I'd > clone my HD, and then try it. See my other reply, should answer your q's.... Forgot the link I was gonna post in that post..... open office is free at http://www.openoffice.org/ (click on Download) while they do have other versions for other platforms, they only have one for WINDOWS (doesn't matter if XP or Vista)... >So, any conflicts you know of between Open Office and Vista? > >Bob A good friend of mine has Open Office running on Vista and is perfectly happy with it. Hope this helps Elliot Richmond Itinerant astronomy teacher > I just got a come-on for Open Office from Java, via an automatic > "update" routine. A one click down load. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Bob As I understand the product descriptions, all your MS Office files will be automatically and completely converted to Open Office file formats. I also gained the impression that the conversion is not possible on a batch basis, but must be done file by file. bill's advice to make a complete backup of all MS files is a very good idea. SignatureCarl A. in FL http://sky.prohosting.com/chainfl/index.htm >> I just got a come-on for Open Office from Java, via an automatic >> "update" routine. A one click down load. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > bill's advice to make a complete backup of all MS files is a very good > idea. Clone. Clone. Not file backup. Signaturebill Theory don't mean squat if it don't work. >> As I understand the product descriptions, all your MS Office files >> will be automatically and completely converted to Open Office file >> formats. I also gained the impression that the conversion is not >> possible on a batch basis, but must be done file by file. Nope. It comes out of the box configured to use native OO file formats but changing it to use native MS formats is as simple as checking a few config boxes. The files that it creates in compatibility mode open just fine in Excel and Turd. I've settled on Office 95 file formats as my standard. The format is old enough that even goofy little apps like my modem's fax sender (that I use a lot) can handle them. OO handles that just fine. Office is the villain here, as it tries to force every file into its most current and most proprietary format. I can tell excel not to do that (have to do it every time, of course) but I haven't figured out yet how to do that with Turd. I probably can be done. I loathe Turd enough that I've not bothered to look very deeply. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted! >>> As I understand the product descriptions, all your MS Office files >>> will be automatically and completely converted to Open Office file [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >John You can set Word 97 to save documents as a default to Office 97-03, or to RTF, but not to Win 95 format. RTF is a pretty good substitute, though, and can be brought up readily with most formatting intact in Wordpad, which I use a LOT more than I use Word. Not that I really have anything against Word 97. It's just a lot of program to bring up to jot a few notes. As for OpenOffice, I just wanted to see what it was like, in case I get tempted into a Linux machine next time around. I assume the Linux and Windows versions of OO have the same features?? Bob >>>> As I understand the product descriptions, all your MS Office files >>>> will be automatically and completely converted to Open Office file [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Bob I think he made a typo.. it is 97-2003 not 95-2003 as for features, yes, but there are several other versions that also have the same features.... check the feature matrix at openoffice.org >>> John >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> formatting intact in Wordpad, which I use a LOT more than I use >> Word. Okay I made a typo. That should read "You can set Word 2007 to save as a default to Word 97-2003 or to RTF but not to Win95". Bob >>>> As I understand the product descriptions, all your MS Office files >>>> will be automatically and completely converted to Open Office file [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >Bob you assume correctly > As I understand the product descriptions, all your MS Office files > will be automatically and completely converted to Open Office file > formats. I also gained the impression that the conversion is not > possible on a batch basis, but must be done file by file. Oops, I meant to say that the conversion is not reversible on a batch basis. CHA >> As I understand the product descriptions, all your MS Office files >> will be automatically and completely converted to Open Office file [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > CHA I have to wonder what you are reading, I have ofice 97, office 2003, office 2007, and openoffice, and the datafiles can be read/modified by any machine on my network (laptops/PDA's/tablets)... all work perfectly fine, and no batch?!?!? crap ever needed.... i know i've only been using it for a year or so, so whatever you are talking about may be some new nonsense that i've never seen, but consider, why would they make it hard to use? would lose sales if they made it incompatible with what many people use.... Just an aside, you can install open office, and NOT automagically change/mess with/search for/convert/change your existing doc/xls/pps/etc files.... just install it, and it will find use stuff in my documents (or whereever you have files stored at) just fine (unless they were created and saved in ONLY office 2007 format, if it sees a previous version n the data file it updates/saves in the old compatible format) >... whatever you are talking about may be some new nonsense that i've >never seen, but consider, why would they make it hard to use? would lose >sales if they made it incompatible with what many people use.... Sales? I thought it was free, no? GB in NC > Just an aside, you can install open office, and NOT automagically > change/mess with/search for/convert/change your existing doc/xls/pps/etc > files.... just install it, and it will find use stuff in my documents (or > whereever you have files stored at) just fine (unless they were created and > saved in ONLY office 2007 format, if it sees a previous version n the data > file it updates/saves in the old compatible format) I have OO on my machine and Word Prefect. None of my files have been converted without my permission. If I click on 'My Files' within 'my documents' I can see the descriptive icons for Open Office, Microsoft Word (conversions and downloads) and Word Perfect as well as some Firefox stuff which is prolly HTML. I keep all my PDFs in their own folder. SignatureJanet Wilder Bad spelling. Bad punctuation Good Friends. Good Life >> As I understand the product descriptions, all your MS Office files will >> be automatically and completely converted to Open Office file formats. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Oops, I meant to say that the conversion is not reversible on a batch > basis. I've been using OO and Star Office (the proprietary version) for many years. OO will read and write pretty much any MS Word format from Word 95 up to but excluding the most recent MS effort to retain their monopoly, Word 97. Batch conversion is unnecessary, if not an actual waste of time. If the file is a .doc file, you open it in OO, edit it, and save it back as a .doc file unless you choose to save it as an .odt file, in which case, the original unedited .doc file is still on your disk drive. If you save a .doc file in .odt format, you can reopen it and save it back to .doc format if you want. OO also has a built-in ability to write .pdf files. You do not have to have Adobe Acrobat Distiller (or whatever it's called) to convert files to .pdf format. Regards, John Kinney > I've been using OO and Star Office (the proprietary version) for > many [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Regards, John Kinney Thanks, John and all the others who disabused me of my assumptions regarding OO/MS compatibility. I've downloaded the portable version to a thumb drive and will be playing with it today. Could somebody highlight the differences between MS Office Professional 2003 and OO, and what are the advantages/drawbacks of the latter when compared to MS 2003. Thanks. Carl A. in FL > Thanks, John and all the others who disabused me of my assumptions > regarding OO/MS compatibility. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Carl A. in FL IMO That's the best way to test it for your specific needs... just try it, and don't change what already works for you, what do you have to lose? > I've downloaded the portable version to a thumb drive and will be playing > with it today. If you're intrested in Linux, you can run it on a thumb drive as well. If you aren't inclined to do all the downloading and installation stuff, you can buy a 2GB thumb drive with Damn Small Linux preinstalled here for about $70: http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/usb.html I haven't used DSL, but supposedly you can boot into Linux from the thumb drive or run it inside Windows. There's apparently enough storage on the drive to keep a gigabyte or so of data on the drive. If so, that's also enough to install Linux OO on the thumb drive in place of the little text editor included with DSL. DSL comes with Firefox preinstalled. > Could somebody highlight the differences between MS Office Professional > 2003 and OO, and what are the advantages/drawbacks of the latter when > compared to MS 2003. Mostly menu differences. For example, page layout is located under "Format" instead of "File"on the menu bar. Vanilla OO does appear to lack most of the automatic text case formatting options available in Word. OO choices are simply uppercase and lowercase, not sentence case, title case and the others in Word. This is the only real inconvenience I've found with OO. I suspect I could set the others up, but haven't been inconvenienced enough to do it so far. Regards, John Kinney > OO also has a built-in ability to write .pdf files. You do not have to > have Adobe Acrobat Distiller (or whatever it's called) to convert files to > .pdf format. Word Perfect has had that ability for years and years. Click 'file' then 'publish' and ta-da! SignatureJanet Wilder Bad spelling. Bad punctuation Good Friends. Good Life >> OO also has a built-in ability to write .pdf files. You do not have >> to have Adobe Acrobat Distiller (or whatever it's called) to convert >> files to .pdf format. > > Word Perfect has had that ability for years and years. Click 'file' > then 'publish' and ta-da! But is WP free, like OO? and is it updated and new features added (again for free) every few months? :) >>> OO also has a built-in ability to write .pdf files. You do not have >>> to have Adobe Acrobat Distiller (or whatever it's called) to convert [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > But is WP free, like OO? and is it updated and new features added (again > for free) every few months? :) Of course it's not free. It is also no substitute for WP. Maybe a substitute for MS Word, but not WP by a long-shot. As for the updates to OO, they just give me a new version and the old one stays on the [uter for me to delete. SignatureJanet Wilder Bad spelling. Bad punctuation Good Friends. Good Life >> I just got a come-on for Open Office from Java, via an automatic >> "update" routine. A one click down load. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > bill's advice to make a complete backup of all MS files is a very good > idea. HUH!?!?!??!??!? What have YOU been smoking? Word docs, excel spreadsheets, powerpoint stuff, works perfectly fine with versions of office OTHER than 2007 (2007 office formats are a new format, and won't work with any previous versions of office - unless in options you check the box to save files in 1997-2003 mode then it works just fine and dandy).... do that and you can not only go back and forth between ms office and open office, but you can use multiple programs yourself, or collaborate with others that have other versions .... >> I just got a come-on for Open Office from Java, via an automatic >> "update" routine. A one click down load. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > will be automatically and completely converted to Open Office file > formats. Not so. When you open a MS file and change it in any way, you can save it back as a MS file or let the program save it as an Open Office file. You don't have to convert anything. When you open any MS Office product with open office, it's ready for use without doing anything. Tom J > I just got a come-on for Open Office from Java, via an automatic > "update" routine. A one click down load. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Bob I have both ms office and open office... Both are installed on the winxp AND vista machines, and additionally I have the whole open office thing not only on both computers, but also on a few usb/jump drives, so I can use em with machines that have usb ports..... Just for fun, and cuz I had an older unlimited install office 2000, installed that on both also, and it works fine.....but ony 2003 and below work fine... IMO 2007 sucks and is problematical... Just an aside, while you didn't say what version of ms office you have, the old office 2003 is compatible, but the newer one (2007) has a different file format, works funny/different, and that won't work with 2003 OR openoffice, unless you save in the older format (ie use "save as" instead of save).. My personal preference, I LOVE open office, use it quite often, and absolutely hate the newer 2007 ms office (no uninstall, so I can't go back to 2003 :( ).... PS, some of the newer versions of office no longer include outlook, and if you happen to use that, there is a bit of a problem since vista has it's own internet mail prog that conflicts, and you can't share/backup data files to xp.... I use firefox and thunderbird, works fine on both xp and vista (they have both regular versions, and portable versions that go on the usb drives), and are FREE! >> I just got a come-on for Open Office from Java, via an automatic >> "update" routine. A one click down load. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > drives), and are FREE! > You can get an add-on for older versions of office that let you read the new file formats - free from MS. Lou >> I just got a come-on for Open Office from Java, via an automatic >> "update" routine. A one click down load. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >hate the newer 2007 ms office (no uninstall, so I can't go back to 2003 >:( ).... I have MS Office 2007, and while I have no complaints about it, I was wondering if new files would be recognizable on or to Open Office. Most of my legacy files are still in MS Office 2003 format, and only get changed casually as I bring them up for some reason. I suppose it would be possible to bring up all the newer files in MS Office 2007, and resave them in 2003, if I really wanted to. Bob > I have MS Office 2007, and while I have no complaints about it, I > was wondering if new files would be recognizable on or to Open [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Bob Now that you have specified which version you have, be aware that office 2007 uses a native xml format that is incompatible with any previous versions, or any 3rd party software.... I use pda's, Tablets, and smartphones all of which have versions of word/excel/powerpoint, that can use the existing 2003 files, but not the new, and USB jump/flash drives that can't run office at all, and at work (SSA, we have a site license and over 100,000 computers running office 2003, so changing all the computers to new programs/a new standard and obsoleting the old data files and existing software, is not a reasonable alternative ).... Whatever standard you pick is up to you, but you have to decide if you want to be tied to the propitary office 2007 format, that will only work with new software from microsoft that you have to buy, or stay with the previous format, that millions of people use, and tons of free software works with.... Just an aside/correction to what you wrote above, if something is in the older/universal format it will *NOT* automagically convert it if you pull it into offfice 2007.... When you try and save it, It will try and save it in the format of the original file, give you a warning that some formating may be lost, and if you continue will save it in the older/universal format... you would either have to slect yes or have to physically do a "save as" to force it to save in the 2007/unique xml format instead of older/universal format..... Again, be aware, that 2007 no longer has outlook, and if you use that and tasks/appointments/meetings/contacts/etc you will lose that (we use em at work all the time) Like I said, up to you if you want to go with the new proprietary format, or stay with the generic format.... You may want to decide, before you even think about using any other software > I just got a come-on for Open Office from Java, via an automatic > "update" routine. A one click down load. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Bob My oldest son has Open Office running on his Vista computers at home as well as their business applications. It does everything that MS Office Professional does and can load and save files in the MS format. They have just had a major upgrade with more bells a whistles that seems to work fine. I have it on my XP and wouldn't go back to MS Office if it was free! Tom J >I just got a come-on for Open Office from Java, via an automatic >"update" routine. A one click down load. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >So, any conflicts you know of between Open Office and Vista? I have both installed under XP and have experienced no conflicts. I have OO set up as my default application for spreadsheets and doc files, as I'm weaning myself from all microsloth products. OO does a few things differently, neither better nor worse than Office, just different. Messes with your muscle memory if you've learned the Office way of doing something that you do a lot. I've run into exactly one spreadsheet that wouldn't work under OO and that one apparently used a proprietary MS extension library of some sort. -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN What do you call a blonde's cranial cavity? Vacuum chamber? >>So, any conflicts you know of between Open Office and Vista? > >I have both installed under XP and have experienced no conflicts. I have OO >set up as my default application for spreadsheets and doc files, as I'm >weaning myself from all microsloth products. Forgot to add, http://www.portableapps.com has the whole OO suite portable-ized so that it can be installed and run from a thumb drive memory stick. One of the core principles of Portable Apps is that it leaves no footprints on the target machine. Plug the thumb drive in to someone else's machine, do your thing and when you unplug, nothing has been left on that machine's hard drive. No temp files, no nothing. I like that. I have the portablized version installed here in my laptop too. All temp, scratch and other files are stored inside the portable apps directory tree instead of being scattered all over my hard drive. If I want to get rid of everything, I simply delete and wipe that directory tree. And if I screw up and need to try to recover a scratch file or something, I know exactly where to look. I REALLY like having my whole work environment in one place and on my thumb drive. The drive is too slow to work directly out of so once a day I have syncback (from Two Bright Sparks) synchronize my thumb drive to my hard drive's portableapps directory tree. That moves everything over, including any new passwords that I might have stored in Keepass. My thumb drive is on my keyring so anywhere I go, it goes. Very handy, especially when I get that "Oh, so you're a nerd. Would you look at my computer?" :-) In my computer bag is a little MobileMate SD card reader dongle. I have a duplicate environment set up on a 4 gig SD card. I have this combo because of the "read only" switch on the SD card. I use this setup instead of my thumb drive whenever I have to look at an unfamiliar computer that may have virii on it. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN *fas-cism* (fash'iz'em) n. A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism. -- The American Heritage Dictionary, 1983 >>>So, any conflicts you know of between Open Office and Vista? >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >John Is the portable apps version of OO the same as any other? Or is it truncated in some way? Bob > Is the portable apps version of OO the same as any other? Or is > it truncated in some way? > > Bob It's exactly the same, and while that link above www.portableapps.com has lots and lots of other cool (free) programs (several hundred, like menus, photo/movie/music player etc), it has a link (automatic) to www.openoffice.org for the actual open office program, along with a link to places like http://www.mozilla.org/ for their progs like firefox/thunderbird (both of which have regular and portable versions in their download area....).... >Is the portable apps version of OO the same as any other? Or is >it truncated in some way? It is exactly the same package. They simply do some FM (redirect temp files to the right place, etc) to the app to make it work in portable mode. Portableapps.com's official release of each package is usually a minor release number behind but that's no big deal. They document the FM so you can do your own if you just gotta have the latest and greatest. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted! >>Is the portable apps version of OO the same as any other? Or is >>it truncated in some way? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >John Thanks, John. Portable apps is interesting. But Open Office within it is incredibly slow through the USB connection to the stick. OO on the laptop has no such problem. I'll look over the thing. One thing I do think I'll do is avoid saving to Word 2007 format. Since I upgraded to Word 2007 on the cheap (I think Office 2007 was something like $100 on a non commercial license) with the new laptop, I'm good for several years. But my next laptop may be a tiny thing running Linux, like the one Don B. and Janet are experimenting with. I'm not an intensive user any more. No desktop publishing. The one MS app I would miss is Streets and Trips. I use it all the time with the GPS while traveling. Or I used to. :o) Maybe there'll be a Linux substitute by the time I do this, in a couple of years. Funny thing. I got started with MS Word early on, because unlike WP, Word for DOS could be entirely installed and run on 1 meg of RAM in a Toshiba laptop that didn't have a hard drive. Docs were kept on a floppy. Back then, Word was lean and mean. WP was a bloatmobile. Bob >>It is exactly the same package. They simply do some FM (redirect temp files >>to the right place, etc) to the app to make it work in portable mode. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >within it is incredibly slow through the USB connection to the >stick. Yep. You ought to try it through a USB 1.1 port. Fire it off, go take in a movie and dinner and when you return, it's ready to go :-) Still, it's better than not having anything at all on a stranger's or client's computer. For my clients, I'll typically copy the whole app directory onto their hard drive, do my thing and then wipe the directory. Amazingly, copying the directory tree doesn't take all that long. >OO on the laptop has no such problem. I'll look over the thing. >One thing I do think I'll do is avoid saving to Word 2007 format. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >tiny thing running Linux, like the one Don B. and Janet are >experimenting with. Severing the cord with Redmond, like any addiction, is difficult and painful but once you've done it, it feels so good! OO has some problems but then any large package does. It won't accept wheel inputs from my Wacom tablet's mouse, for instance. At least they've acknowledged the problem and are working on it. Try THAT with microshaft! My only other main complaint is that they don't do patches, only new releases. 100+Mb and dial-up don't go well together. My two major concerns are being able to use spreadsheets that clients send me and that I retrieve off the net and being able to send spreadsheets to microsloth slaves, at least until I convert 'em. :-) Office 95 (no, that wasn't a typo) xls format is the common denominator. So far I've not needed anything that the format doesn't support. If I did, I'd move up one level at a time until what I needed worked. RE: linux. I've been doing some fairly intensive development work on my web host's machine. I'm with http://www.dreamhost.com and I can't say enough good about them. One of the features that brought me to them is that they give each customer a shell account on their host machine. I can RSH using PuTTY and be right there. I have a standard Bash shell login. 56k is more than fast enough for character terminal work. I haven't done any serious Unix work in over 10 years so I'm rusty but it's amazing how fast it comes back. I have a Linux file server here but basically all I did was get it up and running, get SAMBA (microsloth's networking protocol) working, turn off and disconnect the monitor and forgot about it. It's an old pokey 386 machine that still can keep the ethernet pipe full (my network utilization went from 10% with Winders 98 on the box to 90% with Linux and no change in hardware). When I turned it off to move it up here, uptime showed a little over a year. Try THAT, microcrap! I have Unbutu installed on another hard drive. On this Dell, the drive simply slides in and out of a slot on the side so I can change drives in a second or two. I do NOT like dual-boot. It probably works OK now but in the past I've had trouble with dual boot so my way of doing it is to slide one drive out and slide another one in. With my important data on the server, it's accessible under either OS. I haven't done enough with the GUI yet to have much of an opinion. I do think that I can see the light at the end of the tunnel for going Linux only. Especially as WINE (the windows emulator that lets you run windows programs) gets better and better. >I'm not an intensive user any more. No desktop publishing. The >one MS app I would miss is Streets and Trips. I use it all the >time with the GPS while traveling. Or I used to. :o) My "word processor" is still vi :-) I think that one of the greatest LOSSES to productivity in the office is due to the pretty-print features that the office suites have crammed in. People waste so much time making the document look pretty after the content is complete. It's just a friggin' letter, ferchristsake! For letters and stuff, a plain old text editor is good enough. If I need to print it in large text or something, I'll call it up into wordpad, change the font size and print but the original doc remains in .txt format. For actual publishing (I still do an occasional client magazine), I use PageMaker or the follow-on package InDesign. I can mark up plain text with PM formatting tags and import the file into PageMaker for final fitting to the page and flowing around graphics. In my effort to get completely away from payware, I'm going to change, though. I loathe the Turd (and therefore OO writer) interface. In my Unix days I was learning and using TeX, a typesetting markup language that is widely used on university campuses and is suitable for book publishing. I've forgotten everything I knew about it, it seams, but I'm going to re-learn it. I think there is a GUI front end for it now but I'm not sure. (Only so much info one can suck in every day :-) >Maybe there'll be a Linux substitute by the time I do this, in a >couple of years. Could be. I've heard that Street Atlas will run under WINE. I'm going to find out. I haven't heard anything about S&T but I'd not be surprised to find that microsloth has intentionally sabotaged it so that it would not run under WINE. They've done stuff like that before. SA and Topo are the two major reasons that I still have Windows around. And Forte Agent, of course, though I understand that it will run under WINE too. I've tried Thunderbird but it just doesn't get it in one critical area. Spam filtering. Agent has some sort of fancy Bayesian learning algorithm that learns the nature of spam that you get and eventually traps almost all of it. Dreamhost uses Spam Assassin and they way they have it configured, it traps almost all spam. What little gets through, Agent handles. I might see one a day that escapes Agent's filter. Even more importantly, Agent's filter has a zero false positive rate so far. It hasn't trapped a single non-spam message. Spam Assassin is good but it still catches a valid message every so often, enough that I still have to scan the daily spam report. >Funny thing. I got started with MS Word early on, because unlike >WP, Word for DOS could be entirely installed and run on 1 meg of >RAM in a Toshiba laptop that didn't have a hard drive. Docs were >kept on a floppy. I remember those. Nice machine, as I recall. My team at Dunn and Bradstreet wrote a sales automation package that would run on it, the Grid and a few more DOS machines. We were working on a version that would fit in the BIOS ROM so that the computer would boot up into the application when word came from on-high that we were to drop everything and convert to winders 3.11. Coincidentally, that's when I left to return to private practice as a Unix guru. >Back then, Word was lean and mean. WP was a bloatmobile. yeah. WP had a version for Unix way back when. One of my major clients had it company-wide. I HATED it! I did everything I could to avoid using it. Whomever invented that user interface had to be tripping on some REALLY GOOD acid! I'd write with a scribe and a clay tablet before I'd use WP! The thing that you'll have to prepare yourself for with Linux is that with a few exceptions (OO being one), there isn't a simple setup.exe method to install new software. yeah, there are RPMs Debian packages and stuff but about half the time fiddling is necessary. My rule of thumb is that any install on Linux will average 10x as long as on winders. For instance, a few days ago I pulled down a package to process Usenet binaries (nzbget for anyone who is interested. Works great once it's installed.) Like many Linux packages, it comes as source code that has to be compiled on each machine. Not that big of a deal since Linux comes standard with a C compiler and stuff. Supposedly the install was supposed to go like this: $ ./configure $ ./make $ ./make install "$" is the bash shell command line prompt. Supposedly "configure" figures out the details of your machine and writes out a makefile. "make" is a utility that automates compiling source code and a lot of other stuff. It should build the executable. "make install" copies the binary and support files to wherever the user binaries are located, as determined by "configure". The first problem came when configure decided that my web host's Debian linux cluster was really free-BSD. See, that's the problem with Linux, it still doesn't have adult supervision so all the internecine wars that raged in the pre-windows days are still going on. Every releaser incorporates his religious dogma into his version of Linux and so packages have to figure out what version is installed and then deal with all the minor differences. OK, so I looked in the configure script and hacked around that problem. Configure generated a makefile. Make, however, announced that two important libraries (standard support code that many applications can use). In a Windows setup file, those libraries (dlls) would be part of the package. Not here. I had to go out and find the libraries, fool "configure" for THOSE packages and "make" them. Then I made the application. That went well. "make install" failed because configure hadn't figured out the proper place for them. Rather than waste more time hacking around in configure, I just copied the executable and support files manually. I'm an experienced, though rusty, Unix developer so I knew what the obscure error messages meant. I'd hate to think what an ordinary user would have done. And even though I'm experienced, I still spent the better part of a day over several sessions making the package work. I went through exactly the same thing with SAMBA. Looking back in my log, I see that it took me about 3 days and many emails to support mailing lists to figure out the problems. Speaking of logs, I keep a Linux journal that details everything I do. That is absolutely vital, as many problems have very obscure solutions. I can't trust my memory like I can when working on Windows. Windows has a LOT of self-healing code that runs unseen by the user. That's a little bit of why it is so slow. But it generally does prevent things like application updates from taking the whole machine down. Not the case with Linux. You have to be very careful about installing updates. On my server (debian) I initially allowed its auto-updater to run. Like windows auto-update, it's supposed to go out, pull in patches and updates and install them. In the process it sometimes breaks things. One update broke the Gnome GUI on my server. I'm perfectly content working in character mode (like with DOS) so I didn't waste time looking for the problem. Had I been a user trying to run OO or something else that needed the GUI, I'd have been pissed! I'd have probably had to find a Linux guru and paid him to fix my machine. IFF you install Unbutu and leave it alone it should be as or more reliable than windows. But you can't just install (or let it install) updates. It'll take some research to make sure that the update won't break anything before letting it install. Installing new software is fraught with danger. It works most of the time but when it doesn't, it can take down the machine and there is no "restore point" feature like Windows has where you can roll back to a previous known good instance of the OS. All this hassle is why the paid-support business that has grown up around Linux has become so profitable. I'd advise anyone who isn't a hacker (and who doesn't want to become one) to buy a support package. You'll probably end up spending as much on that as you would on windows and upgrades but at least the money isn't going to the evil empire. I AM going to convert 100% to Linux because Microsh*t hasn't given me any alternative. XP is going to be abandoned. I'll NOT endure that malware called Vista. I can stay with XP for awhile longer but eventually nobody will offer software and especially drivers that run on XP so I'd be at a dead end. Linux will bring me a whole new set of problems but at least they're problems that I can solve myself if I choose to. And I won't EVER be forced to update just to profit someone else. All this is something to keep in mind as you start your migration to Linux. Fortunately free Linux support is all over the net so if you're willing to get your hands a little dirty, you can deal with problems as they arise. Once Linux is configured and running like you like it, it'll stay that way forever and IS reliable. Like I said earlier, my server had been up over a year since the last reboot. That reboot was to install a new hard drive controller. Linux will run for YEARS if you leave it alone and have a good UPS. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Save a tree, kill a beaver > Thanks, John. Portable apps is interesting. But Open Office > within it is incredibly slow through the USB connection to the [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Bob Just something to consider, i use a nokia n800 tablet (n800 about $240, newer version is the n810 - that's about $300- VGA screen, built in wireless, ties to cell phone with blutooth, has some flavor of unix, no clue what exactly), not only runs OO, but the same user supported org (and another at http://maemo.org/ )has tons of free software, and the cool part for me, is the nokia has a usb port built in, and with an adapter (f to f) can plug a flash drive into it, so I can have my data files progs on a flash drive, So as I travel around, plug em into windows pc's with a usb port, and can use it at home, at work, and then plug it into the tablets usb port and go on the tablet.... Bob, My Portable Apps version of OO takes about 45 to 60 seconds to load from USB. I've used it in dozens of computers and find it really stable. > On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:47:07 -0400, Neon John <no@never.com> Portable apps is interesting. But Open Office > within it is incredibly slow through the USB connection to the > stick. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Bob >Funny thing. I got started with MS Word early on, because unlike >WP, Word for DOS could be entirely installed and run on 1 meg of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Bob I was using WordStar and had the whole program on a floppy floppy with enough room to spare for a couple of documents -- Working on gummint contract, we were traveling with the old Compaq 'luggable' portable -- Couldn't have hard drive for security reasons. I prefered WP because it had so many useful features but eventually had to switch to Word because that was what everybody was using, so document transfers went much easier, esp when dealing with folks who could barely turn their computers on. Pete It took me about a month to totally acclimate to OO under Vista. Vista was not an issue. It was the slight changes in the keystrokes, the hot keys and macros that I often use. After that, I can't imagine why I'd pay Microsoft for a product that does nothing more. For work, it took a minimal amount of time changing over the spreadsheets and databases and I was off and running. Works great! Highly recommended. > I just got a come-on for Open Office from Java, via an automatic > "update" routine. A one click down load. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Bob Dunno 'bout 32-bit Vista but it works well on 64-bit Vista. <g> One issue that I encountered was that the Installer needs to be "Run as Administrator" from a downloaded file. I've used both the originally-distributed Star Office and the subsequent Open Office for quite a while and just installed the latest version on SWMBO's new laptop. [64-Bit Vista Ultimate] It's an excellent package that - while it doesn't have quite as many "features" as MS Office - is more versatile than the MS "stuff". If you've already applied the MS Windows Updates - specifically the JAVA Update - I'd be hesitant to install the JAVA Runtime 6 that's shipped with OO 2.4.2 unless you *really* want it. To *not* install it, select "Custom" during the installation and "X" the JAVA item. BTW, OO handles Word files better than Word does and, FWIW, you can use Word ".doc" as your default text format if you so wish. It also does a good job of writing .pdf files if you wish to do so... >So, any conflicts you know of between Open Office and Vista? I don't know from Vista but I wouldn't touch OO unless I knew I would never have to share files with Office users. OO may co-exist with pre-2007 versions of MessyOffice but it doesn't work with 2007 macros and once it has "converted" the macros good luck de-bugging them to get them to work in MSOffice again. BTDT. I hate MessyOffice as much as anybody but it was way too frustrating trying to make the OO conversion work. And much as I detest some of the features of Word the OO version was pretty light duty, IMHO. SignatureR.J.(Bob) Evans (return address needs alteration to work) http://travellingwithgeorge.blogspot.com/ > I don't know from Vista but I wouldn't touch OO unless I knew I would > never have to share files with Office users. OO may co-exist with [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > conversion work. And much as I detest some of the features of Word > the OO version was pretty light duty, IMHO. AAAHH! Another Virus-Generator! You *are* aware that the majority of "Viruses" ["Virii?] are MS Word Macros aren't you? <G> >You *are* aware that the majority of "Viruses" ["Virii?] are MS Word Macros >aren't you? <G> I don't know from writing viruses/virii but I know that debugging somebody else's macros that OO has mangled is no fun. I hesitate to describe myself as a power user but I have to say that I think OO would likely work for light duty use. If you use a word processor to write stories, letters, make posters, banners, cards, whatever then you probably would be very happy with OO. If you use spreadsheets with no macros or probably with very basic macros then you can likely make Calc work and even go back and forth between Excel and Calc on a limited basis. I just know that I gave OO a genuine try and it came up short for what I need to do with it, particularly with Calc but Writer (or whatever they call the Word lookalike) wasn't ready for the big leagues either. Calc might have worked if I could have stayed exclusively in OO format - it was when I started going back and forth between MessySoft and OO that things came off the rails. And unfortunately the world works with MessySoft so - if you interact with other people in your work - you are going to have to work with MessySoft. SignatureR.J.(Bob) Evans (return address needs alteration to work) http://travellingwithgeorge.blogspot.com/ > I just know that I gave OO a genuine try and it came up short for what > I need to do with it, particularly with Calc but Writer (or whatever [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with MessySoft so - if you interact with other people in your work - > you are going to have to work with MessySoft. actually, that's the area where oo is way way better then the ms stuff.... MS Office 2007 has a unique proprietary format, that other versions of office etc can't read at all.... One person with a new computer with the free preinstall test of office 2007 modifying a file can make it unreadable for everyone else, even though it has the same doc/xls/pps extension etc..... And many of the things in office 2007 like borders/colors/etc are not compatible at all with older versions, and force saving in the newer incompatible format, or lose any changes made..... >> I just know that I gave OO a genuine try and it came up short for >> what I need to do with it, particularly with Calc but Writer (or [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > and force saving in the newer incompatible format, or lose any changes > made..... Thank _You_, Marc, for reinforcing my distrust/dislike of "spiffies". "Spiffies", of course, being those "Spiffy" new "features" that bring with them built-in incompatibilities with any other product and are intended to permanently lock the user into a cycle of _mandatory_ dependence upon a single vendor/product/platform. While Companies who upgrade their PCs frequently will usually buy those that come with MSO pre-installed (thinking that they're getting a freebie), the older units tend to work their way downward in the Status Chain and may be in service for a surprisingly long time. This, then, can create its own major headache as newer software may no longer be backwards-compatible with a 10-year (or mmore) older version. BTDT!! For me, one of the greatest things about OO is that it'll run on almost anything that has a JAVA Runtime library. <G> >office etc can't read at all.... One person with a new computer with the >free preinstall test of office 2007 modifying a file can make it unreadable >for everyone else, even though it has the same doc/xls/pps extension >etc..... And many of the things in office 2007 like borders/colors/etc are >not compatible at all with older versions, and force saving in the newer >incompatible format, or lose any changes made..... Which was precisely the point of my original post. If you have to work with people who have to use MessySoft Office then you had best use it too or get used to getting blamed for causing a lot of confusion and difficulty. I don't have to like it but that's the way it is. Mr. Gates didn't get to be one of the wealthiest men on the planet by being stupid. SignatureR.J.(Bob) Evans (return address needs alteration to work) http://travellingwithgeorge.blogspot.com/ > Mr. Gates didn't get to be one of the wealthiest men on the > planet by being stupid. No, he got there by being a _crook_. He simply hired the crooks laid off by IBM to continue their activities on behalf of MegaScheist. As a result, MegaScheist has replaced IBM as the most contemptible source of software in the world: If they can't buy the competition they'll do their best to either make the competetors' products inoperable or drive them out of business. The current (2007) "enhancements" are intended to force the users of prior editions to spend the money (Million$ and/or Billion$) to upgrade their software. This is nothing new for MegaScheist. After all, they're in the business of selling inferior software for outrageous prices and _need_ to continue on with the practice in order to make the big bux. BTW, the Legal and Medical fields rarely use MegaScheist's word processor: they use WordPerfect which is a far superior product. <VBG> >> Mr. Gates didn't get to be one of the wealthiest men on the >> planet by being stupid. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > BTW, the Legal and Medical fields rarely use MegaScheist's word processor: > they use WordPerfect which is a far superior product. <VBG> Good to know someone else abhors Microsoft as much as I do. I'll keep using Word Perfect and even Open Office sometimes. SignatureJanet Wilder Bad spelling. Bad punctuation Good Friends. Good Life <snip> >Good to know someone else abhors Microsoft as much as I do. Why is that good to know? -- Kevin W Miller Cogita tute http://www.bluemoongemworks.com/rv > <snip> >> >> Good to know someone else abhors Microsoft as much as I do. > > Why is that good to know? So we can keep up with the changing times. There are several entire countries that are now using Open Office and have completely ditched MS. I suspect that's the reason for MS 2007 change. I also use WP sometimes just to keep my memory of how to use it! :-) Tom J >> <snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >countries that are now using Open Office and have completely ditched >MS. There are entire countries that do lots of things that don't make sense to me. Not a very good point in OO's favor, IMO. >I suspect that's the reason for MS 2007 change. > >I also use WP sometimes just to keep my memory of how to use it! :-) > >Tom J See? Ain't freedom a great thing? I was never so happy (so to speak) as the day I quit using "Word ohsofarfrom Perfect" (a day so long ago...). -- Kevin W Miller Cogita tute http://www.bluemoongemworks.com/rv >>> <snip> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >There are entire countries that do lots of things that don't make >sense to me. Not a very good point in OO's favor, IMO. What makes more sense? 1. Switching to stable open source document formats for free or cheap. 2. Using a product that charges you several hundred dollars to put your files into a new format every couple of years but is not backward compatible with itself. Your old files are obsolete and you cannot legaly hire someone else to write a coversion program. BTW, wait for the next generation. It will probably be software as a service. You pay MS every year or you cannot use your old files. <snip> >What makes more sense? > >1. Switching to stable open source document formats for free or >cheap. Where's there's no one to call when you have an issue with the product and millions of dollars may be riding on the document or spreadsheet. This one's a bit dated but will give you a general idea of OO limitations: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2005/dec/08/opensource.software Probably fine for many home users, though, and I'm particularly happy to have entire third world countries adopting it. >2. Using a product that charges you several hundred dollars to put >your files into a new format every couple of years but is not backward >compatible with itself. Your old files are obsolete and you cannot >legaly hire someone else to write a coversion program. My 5-1/4 inch floppies are obsolete and my DVD drives won't read or write them. Damn Microsoft! What? You say I should have moved my files to newer media as I upgraded? Hmmmm. Word/Excel are backward compatible. Newer versions will save in an older format. Newer versions will open older versions. What you can't do is use features available to newer version in an older format or use an older version to open files written with a newer version. Well, shoot. What a surprise! Office applications, for the most part, are what they are because that's what the user base is requesting. Try dialing your IP phone from OO, for example, or try doing effective document change tracking. >BTW, wait for the next generation. It will probably be software as a >service. You pay MS every year or you cannot use your old files. If that's what the greatest numbers of the buyers want then that's what they'll get, but I seriously doubt that's where it's headed. -- Kevin W Miller Cogita tute http://www.bluemoongemworks.com/rv > <snip> > Where's there's no one to call when you have an issue with the product [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > -- > Kevin W Miller Kevin, Are you saying that a person that paid 400+beans for the MS Office package can actually get assistance from anybody in Redmond when the stuff hits the fan? If so, I would like to know how and where. (Actually, I guess not. I've already spent way too much time with them and never gotten the real difficulties addressed.) It has been my impression, that if you can not find and absolute match, and therefore, a possible solution in their "Knowledge Base" you are not going to get any other help from them (except to be referred to the query page of the Knowless Base. Matt Colie >Are you saying that a person that paid 400+beans for the MS Office >package can actually get assistance from anybody in Redmond when the >stuff hits the fan? Redmond? HawHawHaw! That was a good one! And I've given my opinion of heavily accented support here more than once. But, at least you can call somewhere. With OO there's nowhere... >If so, I would like to know how and where. >(Actually, I guess not. I've already spent way too much time with them [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Matt Colie I've called MS PSS probably a half dozen times or a bit more, in the last twelve years, and always gotten the issue addressed even if I've sometimes had to request the answer be repeated slowly and distinctly and often. At least half of those instances were at no charge. One was at their after hours rate, the rest at the regular rate. But, since this is a major product used by millions, most of the answers I need are available either in the knowledgebase, newsgroups or on the web and it's rare to need a support call. I'll say it again, blindly hating a company because they provide a product millions of people want is foolish, IMO. Freedom means that there are options for those who don't want to use MS products and OO is just one of those options. -- Kevin W Miller Cogita tute http://www.bluemoongemworks.com/rv Kevin, There are thousands of persons on the OO forums and I've yet to find a question not answered many times. That the beauty of open source software. You have the world helping. The biggest problem many have with OO is that it takes money out of consultant's pockets ... big money. Steve www.wolfswords.com under the motorhome link > Redmond? HawHawHaw! That was a good one! And I've given my opinion of > heavily accented support here more than once. But, at least you can > call somewhere. With OO there's nowhere... > Redmond? HawHawHaw! That was a good one! And I've given my opinion > of > heavily accented support here more than once. But, at least you can > call somewhere. With OO there's nowhere... With OO you don't have to pick up the phone. When I have a question about OO, I just go the the OO forum and ask my question. I've never had to wait over an hour for a detailed solution to my question. These people know what they use!! Tom J > I'll say it again, blindly hating a company because they provide a > product millions of people want is foolish, IMO. It's more important to hate them because they are unethical. SignatureYou can trust me; I'm not like the others. >> Are you saying that a person that paid 400+beans for the MS Office >> package can actually get assistance from anybody in Redmond when the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > heavily accented support here more than once. But, at least you can > call somewhere. With OO there's nowhere... Kevin, My case experience is that what I have gotten from Redmond is substantially as good as the nothing provided by OO. >> If so, I would like to know how and where. >> (Actually, I guess not. I've already spent way too much time with them [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > are available either in the knowledgebase, newsgroups or on the web > and it's rare to need a support call. I'm very glad that your experience has been different than mine. According to the company accounts, we have paid over 3K$us for MS software licenses since the company was formed. For this we have gotten the use of buggy software and no real support (except to be referred to the query page of the afore mentioned knowless base. > I'll say it again, blindly hating a company because they provide a > product millions of people want is foolish, IMO. Freedom means that > there are options for those who don't want to use MS products and OO > is just one of those options. I/we do not hate these people or this company. We just have formed an opinion that the products provided belong in the same category as VHS movies and froze pizza. There are alternatives to MS Office which we are exploring. So far, all are less expensive and held in more regard by the users than MS Anything. Most Ms Word users don't have to pay to use it. If they did, I wonder how many would stay with it. > Kevin W Miller Matt Colie >> <snip> >> Where's there's no one to call when you have an issue with the product [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Matt Colie I have called Word Perfect and have gotten excellent help the 3 times in 17 years I've needed it. SignatureJanet Wilder Bad spelling. Bad punctuation Good Friends. Good Life >Are you saying that a person that paid 400+beans for the MS Office >package can actually get assistance from anybody in Redmond when the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Matt Colie You must be hopelessly inept at searching KB. I have never had a problem fixing even the most oddball glitch. --- $$$$$$$$$%% Yours truly, Johnny Dollar! >> Are you saying that a person that paid 400+beans for the MS Office >> package can actually get assistance from anybody in Redmond when the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > $$$$$$$$$%% > Yours truly, Johnny Dollar! Well Johnny, I've been writing boolean expressions since 1964. I've written code in MC1, APL, Cobol, Fortran, Forth, Pascal, and C (at least). The company has owned licenses to MS Word and such since 1988. With the introduction of Win3.11 (Win3.0 was a complete disaster), we started to transition to an MS based office. It has not been nearly as smooth as the the salesman promised. To date, there are three outstanding issues that I have open with Microsoft. They have told me to upgrade to the newer version for two of those. We don't just write notes here. We present technical papers to clients that pay us a lot of money to do so. We can not afford to try to use a product just because it is popular or common. We need something that works as promised all the time. Matt Colie > We don't just write notes here. We present technical papers to clients > that pay us a lot of money to do so. We can not afford to try to use a > product just because it is popular or common. We need something that > works as promised all the time. > > Matt Colie Have you considered a job with less stress; like maybe guiding for fishermen seeking catfish? LZ >>> Are you saying that a person that paid 400+beans for the MS Office >>> package can actually get assistance from anybody in Redmond when the [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Matt Colie Hate to say it, but in my opinion, you have already been lied to, screwed, manipulated.... Lets see, salesmans lips/mouth were/was moving, doesn't work as promised ALEADY, and the hourly wage guy doesn't want to do diddly, so he tells you to "upgrade"... meaning it's somone elses problem cuz he's not on the team for the new software version (unfortunately in a smaller firm it will probably be the same guy, but in a big firm, no way).... Sounds like you are in the upgrade and it won't be my job anymore cycle....... Just a thought, do/use whatever works for you exactly the way you want, and look at converters that make the files from that into what the client wants as an end product.... Sounds like you are using word cuz that's what the clients want.... and thats exactly opposite to what you said above "We can not afford to try to use a product just because it is popular or common."...... >> <snip> >> Where's there's no one to call when you have an issue with the product [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Matt Colie You obviously haven't really done that. If you purchased Office at retail, you have 90 days of free support from the time you place the first call/email, NOT from when you bought it. Finding support is easy-peasy. http://support.microsoft.com/oas/default.aspx?ln=en-us&prid=10185&gprid=416349 will get you right to it. If it came preinstalled by a computer manufacturer, support comes from that vendor, just like it does with all the hardware in the machine. There is no reason for the world to love Microsoft products. Just walk away and don't be angry at something that doesn't do the job for you. Be happy with OO. The market WILL decide which model will work. Dave Thompson >> Kevin, >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Dave Thompson Dave, Most of the systems we use are purpose built in our shops. I know well of the the 90 day rule. Unfortunately, all they have to do is supply an answer to their own satisfaction and then the 90 day clock starts. If the reply to your response that the provided solution is worthless takes another week, they just don't seem to care. At that rate, you soon have a notice that the free support time has been exhausted and you are free to buy more support at your own cost. The fact that no actual solution is in there is just not important. One member of the out staff actually suggested that we phase buy the upgrades to the systems so that we always have one in the 90 day support window. That adds 1200+$us/yr to the cost of a systems that still does not perform as required. Thank you for the thought Matt Colie ><snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2005/dec/08/opensource.software Then buy StarOffice and call Sun. We both know this is a MS shill piece. >Probably fine for many home users, though, and I'm particularly happy >to have entire third world countries adopting it. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >write them. Damn Microsoft! What? You say I should have moved my files >to newer media as I upgraded? Hmmmm. only if you want to get to your old files. BTW, if you need conversion I have at least one computer still running 51/4. ;-) >Word/Excel are backward compatible. Newer versions will save in an >older format. Newer versions will open older versions. What you can't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >dialing your IP phone from OO, for example, or try doing effective >document change tracking. Ah, the good old "user base", the "silent majority" of the computer trade. I do not want any program dialing my IP phone without my direct control. I also do not want my software calling home to check on anything unless I tell it to. Guess that makes me a bad MS customer, and proud of it. ;-) >>BTW, wait for the next generation. It will probably be software as a >>service. You pay MS every year or you cannot use your old files. > >If that's what the greatest numbers of the buyers want then that's >what they'll get, but I seriously doubt that's where it's headed. You doubt it but most of my sources state it. Balmer and Co are certainly trying to promote it. Their basic problem is that they need to generate a continuous stream of income on a mature product. Most people don't need or even understand most of the added features since Word for Windows. BTW, I love Microsoft. I also get paid for fixing it's foibles. I just realize that if it worked well 80% of the IT business would need a new job. Since most of those folks are now remoting into business computers from India I don't care. nothermark > <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Where's there's no one to call when you have an issue with the product > and millions of dollars may be riding on the document or spreadsheet. Millions of dollars depend on your ability to manage, say, a hanging indent? I would also recommend that if millions of dollars are at stake a spreadsheet program is not robust enough, no matter who makes it. SignatureYou can trust me; I'm not like the others. >> Where's there's no one to call when you have an issue with the product >> and millions of dollars may be riding on the document or spreadsheet. > >Millions of dollars depend on your ability to manage, say, a hanging >indent? Contract documents, etc. Can indents hang? Just the criminal indents or all of them? >I would also recommend that if millions of dollars are at stake a >spreadsheet program is not robust enough, no matter who makes it. Why would one write contract documents in a spreadsheet program? The same ones who do financials in Photoshop? -- Kevin W Miller Cogita tute http://www.bluemoongemworks.com/rv > <snip> >> Good to know someone else abhors Microsoft as much as I do. > > Why is that good to know? So I don't feel loney SignatureJanet Wilder Bad spelling. Bad punctuation Good Friends. Good Life >> <snip> >>> Good to know someone else abhors Microsoft as much as I do. >> >> Why is that good to know? > > So I don't feel loney Lonely or loony? Don't make us choose... LZ Lone Haranguer <linuszrv@gmail.com> wrote in news:6hbco7Fk90nvU2 @mid.individual.net: >>> <snip> >>>> Good to know someone else abhors Microsoft as much as I do. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Lonely or loony? Don't make us choose... > LZ Try both at the same time! WP afficianados are neither since (1) they have a common meeting ground in their appreciation of superior software and (2) recognize that those who are loony enough to prefer MegaScheist's travesty of a word processor after exposure to WordPerfect are beyond redemption/rehabilitation. Even WordStar was better than Word. <G> SignatureI used to be an anarchist but had to give it up: _far_ too many rules. >> <snip> >>> Good to know someone else abhors Microsoft as much as I do. >> >> Why is that good to know? > >So I don't feel loney You misspelled "loony". -- Kevin W Miller Cogita tute http://www.bluemoongemworks.com/rv >> <snip> >>> Good to know someone else abhors Microsoft as much as I do. >> >> Why is that good to know? > >So I don't feel loney Umm, I believe you mis-spelled 'looney' Pete ><snip> >> >>Good to know someone else abhors Microsoft as much as I do. > >Why is that good to know? Ya, why is that and of what value is the knowledge? Following are some opinions of mine based on experience and factual knowledge but they may not necessarily parallel YOUR views. I started w/PCs in the 80's with Wordstar, cumbersome though it was, because it was about all there was. I then gravitated to Word Perfect and loved it until I started Law School. The Windows version was slow but still quite good. Besides, most law school teachers used it and the student version was CHEAP. After graduating and starting to work, I went to a firm that used MS Office. I hated it. Gradually, the legal field (at least in Arizona with one of the most advanced computerized court systems in the world) moved to it so I was stuck. I have learned to like it (if not love). BTW, my department at Motorola had one of the first PCs in the country. Of course we sold a few hundred million $$$ of semiconductors to them every year. Then, I changed jobs to MicroRel and we had one of the first Macintoshs sold. I loved it for about 2 days and switched back to my Compaq Lugable (what a piece of sh.t it was, but better in my view than the Mac!) My Tandy 1200HD loved PC software, including ham radio stuff so I had that at home. When Windows 3 came out I used it. Bulky and not nice but useable. I used Netscape for the WEB and back to IE. Later I went to Fire Fox and then back to IE. I have built and purchased at least 15 computers over the years and you will notice that I have moved away from MS but always came back. Not a necessarily conscious decision on my part, it just happened. Now, to those that believe Gates is a criminal, why hasn't he been sued, lost and forced to pay his billions to those hurt? His law suit by the feds in the 90's was politically driven. Even the Atty Gen office admitted that later. He is far from perfect but I venture he has givenn a bigger %age of his wealth to charity than any other democrat in history. BTW, HE IS A DEM, BIG TIME! I am not saying there is a thing wrong with Mac, OO, or any other OS or machine or piece of software. If you like something, use it, but don't flaunt your imagined superiority to anyone. --- $$$$$$$$$%% Yours truly, Johnny Dollar! >> <snip> >>> Good to know someone else abhors Microsoft as much as I do. >> >> Why is that |
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