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Travel Forum / Travel Types / RV Travel / September 2005Best space heater for winter?
I want to keep our 24 foot class "C" ready to go during the winter. Plan on getting a space heater to use and would like to know what type is best...catalytic seems best but have no experience with them. Don't like the idea of an exposed electric element in and unattended space and straight convection would require additional circulation (fan). I'm in NW Washington State (Ferndale)...last winter we had about ten days of 15° nights in Jan but I fully winterized the plumbing. Figure I can augment with the propane furnace if necessary and use a space heater to keep the interior in the 40°-50° range. Is it best to determine cubic footage of the rv when determining what capacity heater is needed? TIA, Brian  SignaturePegleg U.S. Navy Retired Support Our Troops All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope. Sir Winston Churchill Don't know what your reasons are for the heat are but used to live in Bellingham and winterized the pipes and that was it. No mildew problems or anything like that. Did have a distant neighbor that kept one of those small cat heaters running in his motorhome. If you are concerned about sparks (or what ever) flying out of a elec. heater, go buy a large metal baking pan or something on that order and set the elec. heater in that. Puget Sound Energy will love you for running that heater all winter!!! SignatureGoat For Reply, Post to Group Only > I want to keep our 24 foot class "C" ready to go during the winter. > Plan on getting a space heater to use and would like to know what type [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Brian >Don't know what your reasons are for the heat are but used to live in >Bellingham and winterized the pipes and that was it. No mildew problems or >anything like that. Guess you didn't understand my original post...I want to keep the rv ready to go through winter without winterizing the plumbing. SignaturePegleg U.S. Navy Retired Support Our Troops All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope. Sir Winston Churchill > Guess you didn't understand my original post...I want to keep the rv > ready to go through winter without winterizing the plumbing. They make electric heaters with a "freeze setting" so you can set it to come on when the temperatures get low. Used to keep one in the root cellar when we left the house empty for 5 months at a time during Minnysoda winters. If you have a basment model, you may need one down and one up. LZ Pegleg I used to be a member in good standing, of the "Ferndale Wayward Boys Club". We held our meetings in the "Ferndale Tavern", which was almost like a museum...... Don >Pegleg > I used to be a member in good standing, of the "Ferndale Wayward Boys >Club". We held our meetings in the "Ferndale Tavern", which was almost >like a museum...... > Don We just moved here from San Diego in March 2004. I think that place is now where Babe's Place is located...there is no Ferndale Tavern now. Was it on Main Street? What years are you talking about? SignaturePegleg U.S. Navy Retired Support Our Troops All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope. Sir Winston Churchill > Guess you didn't understand my original post...I want to keep the rv > ready to go through winter without winterizing the plumbing. Putting a heater *inside* your 24-foot Class C won't accomplish much if your unit has plumbing exposed to the outside temperatures -- that is, outide of the insulated volume even though they may be hidden from view or from easy view. Most small Class C units _do_ have exposed pipes underneath and/or beneath the skin but outside the insulation. Ours sure did. Have you traced the plumbing to ensure your plan will work? For example, where is your drain valve? :-) Jenny >> Guess you didn't understand my original post...I want to keep the rv >> ready to go through winter without winterizing the plumbing. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Have you traced the plumbing to ensure your plan will work? For >example, where is your drain valve? Yes...all the plumbing is within the living space, just in cabinets, none exposed underneath. Drain valves for system are in storage cabinet... of course the drain valve for the fresh water tank is expose through the skin. I'm going to put an additional valve in-board so none of the drain line/valve going through the skin will have water in them. SignaturePegleg U.S. Navy Retired Support Our Troops All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope. Sir Winston Churchill I misunderstood, too. You're heating it while not camping in it. I do that only when I want to keep from winterizing due to an upcoming trip. We are too cold in northern Ohio to do that without the costs being oppressive. Steve > Guess you didn't understand my original post...I want to keep the rv > ready to go through winter without winterizing the plumbing. >I misunderstood, too. You're heating it while not camping in it. I do that >only when I want to keep from winterizing due to an upcoming trip. We are [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Guess you didn't understand my original post...I want to keep the rv >> ready to go through winter without winterizing the plumbing. I keep mine ready to go all the time too. The ceramic heater that I recommended provides enough heat even in single digit weather to keep the plumbing from freezing. I set the thermostat to 50 and open all the cabinet doors through which plumbing runs. So far, no problems. I set the gas furnace to 40 as a backup in case something goes wrong with the electricity. A couple of other notes on cold weather operation (to the original poster). I do a couple of other things to keep my RV useable. One, after I drain the holding tank, I pour a gallon of pink antifreeze down the toilet. This collects in the dump valve and plumbing and keeps it from freezing. The tank itself can freeze without damage. I've never had it freeze solid but I have seen ice through the toilet drain. Another small mod is a valve that feeds from the hot water line and drains back into the fresh water tank. I can open this valve and the pump then circulates hot water between the fresh water tank and the water heater. Even in very cold weather, I can heat the fresh water tank to about 100 deg and not have it freeze for the next 24 hours. I have a 30 gallon tank which takes only about half an hour to heat that much. I do that every night before I go to bed. I could insulate the tanks for even better cold resistance but so far I've not had the need. John --- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com Cleveland, Occupied TN >>> Guess you didn't understand my original post...I want to keep the rv >>> ready to go through winter without winterizing the plumbing. You might consider the way Winnebago sets up their motorhomes. First, both ahead of and after the pump are three way valves that allow you to (effectively) take the pump out of the system. You can run antifreeze only through the pump. Next, there are valves at the lowest point in the system that allows proper drainage. There are no low points. You antifreeze the pump, open the valves, drain the water, and walk away. It takes about 15 minutes. I added a valve to the hot water tank to allow it to dump overboard. I have an electric element where the other valve had been. Steve www.wolfswords.com under the motorhome link >You might consider the way Winnebago sets up their motorhomes. First, both >ahead of and after the pump are three way valves that allow you to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >pump, open the valves, drain the water, and walk away. It takes about 15 >minutes. As you probably know, Itasca is Winny's upscale line so no surprise that mine has all that hardware too. I don't use it normally because I hate fooling with the pink stuff and I want the rig ready to roll on a moment's notice. When it's very cold out, I keep the fresh water tank drained. When I'm ready to go, I fill the tank with hot water and away we go. That holds me for the first 24 hours. I already have food and clothes in the rig so the ET from deciding to go to pulling out is probably 15 minutes. I'd hate to have to double that by having to flush the pink sh*t out of the pump. >I added a valve to the hot water tank to allow it to dump overboard. I have >an electric element where the other valve had been. I broke down last year and got a new direct ignition/electric water heater. Designed that way from the factory, the unit uses a standard screw-in water heater element rather than a Hott Rod type affair. Very nice. This one didn't have a drain cock but does have an anode at the bottom of the tank so I installed a street Tee, inserted the anode into the straight part of the tee and a ball valve on the side leg. Now I can drain it fast. I normally leave the electric element on in cold weather to prevent freezing. With the old heater, I put a ball valve in place of the radiator drain cock on the bottom and drilled and tapped the side of the safety valve below the seat on top for a small ball valve for air bleed. With both valves open, the tank would drain in under 5 minutes. I'm probably going to have to do the safety valve mod to the new one too, as it doesn't drain well at all unless the safety is held open. John --- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com Cleveland, Occupied TN > I want to keep our 24 foot class "C" ready to go during the winter. > Plan on getting a space heater to use and would like to know what type [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Brian Brian. I'm about thirty miles south of you so my winters are a bit milder than yours. <g> I didn't winterize the rig at all last winter but I ran a small, 1500 watt electric cube type heater in the RV as well as a dehumiderfier. No exposed heating elements. They kept the interior temps above freezing. I also ran a few light bulb in the lower compartments that contained plumbing. This year, with the new (to us) RV I plan on using the pink stuff. As others have indicated it really doesn't take very long to unwinterize if we decide to go somewhere (and we do use the RV all winter long) and then rewinterize it when we return. I think the extra bit of time it takes to do so will be paid for in peace of mind. Kevin W. Miller I use a ceramic heater in mine. About 1400 watts. I haven't seen weather below about 15, a range the heater does a good job. I use the ceramic heater because it is practically completely fire safe. If the air opening is blocked, the element heats up a bit more which causes it to back down on the power until an equilibrium is reached. I tested mine with a piece of paper over the grille. It turned slightly brown but no visible smoke and no flame. Also, unless the heater happens to get crammed tightly up against a wall, the air isn't hot enough to damage most materials. The only problem I've had was in getting the thing started in really cold weather. The PTC element works the other way too, the cooler it gets, the more power it draws. With the element below freezing, the built-in overload tripped several times before I could get the element hot enough to operate. I finally stuck a pen through the slot and stalled the fan to give the element a little help. As long as the element is above about 40 degrees, no problem. John >I want to keep our 24 foot class "C" ready to go during the winter. >Plan on getting a space heater to use and would like to know what type [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Brian --- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com Cleveland, Occupied TN >I use a ceramic heater in mine. About 1400 watts. I haven't seen >weather below about 15, a range the heater does a good job. > >I use the ceramic heater because it is practically completely fire >safe. I like that. How did you determine how big of a heater you needed? SignaturePegleg U.S. Navy Retired Support Our Troops All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope. Sir Winston Churchill >>I use a ceramic heater in mine. About 1400 watts. I haven't seen >>weather below about 15, a range the heater does a good job. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >I like that. How did you determine how big of a heater you needed? Oh, that's easy. that's the largest one I could find. I have a 20 ft nominal Itasca Spectrum so it's about the same size as yours. I use the same style heater in my mom's 24 ft Class C and it works fine too. I think mine is the Holms brand, whatever Wallyworld had. John --- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com Cleveland, Occupied TN >Oh, that's easy. that's the largest one I could find. I have a 20 ft >nominal Itasca Spectrum so it's about the same size as yours. I use >the same style heater in my mom's 24 ft Class C and it works fine too. >I think mine is the Holms brand, whatever Wallyworld had. Thanks very much John! SignaturePegleg U.S. Navy Retired Support Our Troops All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope. Sir Winston Churchill We live in Tacoma and use our class C "year-round". I keep the rig under a semi-covered vinyl shelter. I use an electric radiator type oil filled heater along with a thermostat plug in device that kicks on when the temp reaches 34 degree's. So far its worked great, but as you know, last year we didn't have that many days in a row below 32. Enjoy your RV all winter! Phil >I want to keep our 24 foot class "C" ready to go during the winter. > Plan on getting a space heater to use and would like to know what type [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Brian It would be uncomfortable showering when the interior temperature is 40. Electric heaters work great. I've added external thermostats to better control the temperatures. While I might like it cooler, my kids might like it a bit warmer. We can do either or both. We also can shower. 40 degrees! Brrrrr! Don't forget to leave a window cracked and the vents partly open. Otherwise you'll be taking a bath. Steve www.wolfswords.com under the motorhome link then under the winter camping link > days of 15° nights in Jan but I fully winterized the plumbing. Figure I > can augment with the propane furnace if necessary and use a space heater > to keep the interior in the 40°-50° range. >I want to keep our 24 foot class "C" ready to go during the winter. >Plan on getting a space heater to use and would like to know what type >is best I found two items at West Marine that keep my MH from freezing. The first is a de-humidifier with a small heat element and a fan. I keep it in the compartment that contains the water and holding tanks. It draws about 100 watts. An electric light bulb might work just as well but the de-humidifier is less prone to breakage and the small fan keeps the air circulating. The second is a space heater that can be set for 600, 900 or 1500 watts and has a freeze setting on the thermostat. It is built to be tip over proof. Remember to keep the cupboard doors open so the heat can get to the hidden plumbing. Phil > I'm in NW Washington State (Ferndale)...last winter we had about ten > days of 15° nights in Jan but I fully winterized the plumbing. Figure I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Brian Hi Brian, I've lived in Ferndale for the past 20 years and previously in Bellingham for 35 years. Last winter was quite mild, grin. Much of Ferndale is exposed to the arctic blasts from the northeast where the chill factor can hit -50 and I've even seen it hit a -75 as it did in 1990. Ferndale is an odd area for weather. I've seen Bellingham 70 degrees warmer then Ferndale starting at the airport. I've seen it snow in early July at Portal Way exits on I-5 causing a massive pile up. Still, it's a great place to live. What I do to stay warm and not freeze up. I use a couple of those round 1000 watt radiant heaters to stay warm in my 34'. The radiant heaters or for that matter any space heater will keep you warm but they will not prevent a freeze up here in Ferndale. The NE wind freezes you up sideways through the walls even if you have all your access doors open and it's a +70 inside. The only way I've found to combat this is to construct a plywood barrier lined with 8" insulation and place it along the outside of the rig facing the northeast. If your storing your RV inside then you won't need the barrier. If you plan on shutting off your hot water tank then drain it. They pop like a grape, expensive to replace, and not fun to change. Keep in mind that in Ferndale it can be +45 when you go to bed and -25 with gale winds from the NE when you wake up. Don't base your winter experience on last year's mild winter. It changes every year, grin. Terry -- Crayfishing Made Easy World's Leader in Crayfish Traps & Crab Snares Everyone Is Doing It. Are You? http://www.terrybullard.com/CrawfishMain.html Hi Brian, I've lived in Ferndale for the past 20 years and previously in Bellingham for 35 years. Last winter was quite mild, grin. Much of Ferndale is exposed to the arctic blasts from the northeast where the chill factor can hit -50 and I've even seen it hit a -75 as it did in 1990. Ferndale is an odd area for weather. I've seen Bellingham 70 degrees warmer then Ferndale starting at the airport. I've seen it snow in early July at Portal Way exits on I-5 causing a massive pile up. Still, it's a great place to live. -- Crayfishing Made Easy World's Leader in Crayfish Traps & Crab Snares Everyone Is Doing It. Are You? http://www.terrybullard.com/CrawfishMain.html You have to be daft, -50 not in you wildest dreams--Herbert > -- > Crayfishing Made Easy [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You have to be daft, -50 not in you wildest dreams--Herbert Read February 1989 segment... http://news.bellinghamherald.com/special-pub/centennial/160470.shtml "A savage storm packed a wind-chill factor estimated at 50 to 70 degrees below zero...." Ferndale does get hit harder than Bellingham (just down the road) normally. Ben >> -- >> Crayfishing Made Easy [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Ben Unfortunately, wind chill is irrelevant and meaningless, with sufficient wind velocity at the freezing point you could have any wind chill, where in actuality the temperature remains at freezing point. http://www.usatoday.com/weather/wcstates.htm > >> -- > >> Crayfishing Made Easy [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > actuality the temperature remains at freezing point. > http://www.usatoday.com/weather/wcstates.htm You didn't agree with the OP's statement regarding wind chill reaching -50 to -75. You were incorrect as it certainly does appear to have been that low. Whether or not wind-chill is meaningless is not pertinent however interesting. Ben > You didn't agree with the OP's statement regarding wind chill reaching > -50 to -75. You were incorrect as it certainly does appear to have been > that low. Whether or not wind-chill is meaningless is not pertinent > however interesting. > > Ben Theory and conjecture; you must have missed the estimated WAG of 50 to 70. Besides wind chill has no effect on inanimate object. I didn't realize this. So then assuming air leakage into the motorhome is zero, if my motorhome is at 70 degrees and the outside air temperature is zero, it will cool at the same rate no matter if the wind is calm or it is blowing at 30 mph? Certainly you are correct in the statement that the motorhome will cool only to the outside air temperature. The confusion is with the idea of the need to be animated. Any mass that is warmer than the air temperature is affected. You will find that even with zero leakage the warm motorhome will cool faster in a breeze than it will without the breeze. Steve www.wolfswords.com under the motorhome link > Theory and conjecture; you must have missed the estimated WAG of 50 to > 70. Besides wind chill has no effect on inanimate object. >I didn't realize this. So then assuming air leakage into the motorhome is >zero, if my motorhome is at 70 degrees and the outside air temperature is [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> Theory and conjecture; you must have missed the estimated WAG of 50 to >> 70. Besides wind chill has no effect on inanimate object. You must have missed my other post where I alluded to the fact that wind velocity and its convective activity would indeed have the effect of accelerated cooling. >You must have missed my other post where I alluded to the fact that wind >velocity and its convective activity would indeed have the effect of >accelerated cooling. Accelerated (faster) cooling yes...cooling below the actual temp no. SignaturePegleg U.S. Navy Retired Support Our Troops All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope. Sir Winston Churchill > You must have missed my other post where I alluded to the fact that > wind > velocity and its convective activity would indeed have the effect of > accelerated cooling. This entire thread about wind-chill is all very interesting but whether or not wind-chill is important to an RVer is really the question. If you are trying to maintain a certain temp above freezing inside the RV and around the pipes, the answer is yes. The amount of energy required to maintain a temp above freezing will be more if the wind-chill outside is -50 vs 31. This is, of course, if the real temp is below freezing but even when above freezing, if you are trying to maintain, say, 70 degrees inside the RV, the lower the wind-chill, the more energy needed to maintain the heat inside. Ben >> You must have missed my other post where I alluded to the fact that >> wind [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Ben Wind chill shouldn't affect the interior or exterior temperature off the RV. From: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/forcesofnature/windchill.html "The wind chill factor is the method used by weather forecasters to tell us how much colder the wind makes unprotected skin feel. So why do meteorologists say it's -10 with a wind chill factor that will make it feel more like -18? Why don't they just say it's -18? The wind doesn't actually change the temperature outside, but the temperature we feel is not the air temperature but our skin temperature. A person will sense that it's colder because the wind steals body heat by blowing away warm air that surrounds the skin. This means the wind chill factor is not a factor for inanimate objects like rocks, cars and snow - they will all maintain the same temperatures no matter how strongly the winds blow. " Kevin W. Miller >>> You must have missed my other post where I alluded to the fact that >>> wind [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > like rocks, cars and snow - they will all maintain the same > temperatures no matter how strongly the winds blow. " Yes, but as wind blows, it steals the heat from inanimate objects faster. Wind chill was initially determined by how quickly a can of water cooled in the wind. A can of water is an inanimate objects, I'm sure you agree. Wind-chill wasn't meant to be related to inanimate objects but a way to determine how fast frost bite will occur. Think of it this way: if there is wind, it will steal heat more quickly from inanimate objects. When there is a wind-chill factor lower than the real temp, that means there is wind and inanimate objects will cool quicker. I realize that they will not cool below the real temperature but if they cool quicker, that means there would be more energy required to maintain higher temps. Ben <snip> >> The wind doesn't actually change the temperature outside, but the >> temperature we feel is not the air temperature but our skin [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Yes, but as wind blows, it steals the heat from inanimate objects > faster. <snipped> > Ben No, it won't. If the temperature outside is at 0 degrees F and a rock outside is at 0 degrees F and it's blowing 20 miles an hour outside it doesn't matter what the "Wind Chill" is; the rock will still be 0 degrees and the wind won't steal any heat from it (even though it still has considerable heat left to lose). Even though the "Wind Chill" is "-22 F" at that temperature and wind speed. "Wind Chill" is a measure of how cold it would "feel" if you were standing outside naked in that temperature and wind. Kevin W. Miller SignatureHome Page: www.rvlover.net >> > <snip> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > a measure of how cold it would "feel" if you were standing outside > naked in that temperature and wind. How about if the rock temp was 98.6 degrees and you were trying to maintain that rocks temperature at 98.6 degrees. Would it take more energy to keep that rock at 98.6 degrees if the wind was blowing? Again, I realize it won't cool below the real temperatures but it will cool *faster*. If you still disagree then why would a can of water cool faster in the wind then when there is no wind? Think about it. Ben > <snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Kevin W. Miller I'm sorry I misread your comment above. You said "Yes, but as wind blows, it steals the heat from inanimate objects faster". That's true up to a point. The objects will never cool to the "Wind Chill" temp. They'll only cool to the ambient temp. Kevin W. Miller >> <snip> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > up to a point. The objects will never cool to the "Wind Chill" temp. > They'll only cool to the ambient temp. Correct. I never said they would drop below the real temp but the energy required to maintain a temp above the real temp would be greater depending on how fast the wind blows. Since wind-chill is a factor of how fast wind blows, it has an effect on those objects which are being heated above real temp (i.e., an RV). By how much, I don't know. Ben > I'm sorry I misread your comment above. You said "Yes, but as wind > blows, it steals the heat from inanimate objects faster". That's true > up to a point. The objects will never cool to the "Wind Chill" temp. > They'll only cool to the ambient temp. Wind chill gives an indication of how much faster an object will attempt to reach ambient temperature. A heated RV will lose heat faster when the wind is blowing because the boundary layer of heated air next to the surface will be stripped away faster. This is a small factor though. The primary factor is that no trailer or house is perfectly air tight, so the wind will tend to blow through and displace the heated inside air. > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Kevin W. Miller We are not talking about rocks on an RV ng, we are referring to RVs. The outside of the RV will dissipate heat faster when the wind blows. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME >This entire thread about wind-chill is all very interesting but whether >or not wind-chill is important to an RVer is really the question. If you [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >inside the RV, the lower the wind-chill, the more energy needed to >maintain the heat inside. The answer to that is no, it doesn't. Wind chill is strictly an attempt to quantify the product of temperature and wind velocity. In a decently insulated RV, the outside skin will be essentially at the outside temperature or a few degrees above. Wind blowing across a surface at ambient temperature has no effect or in the case of the skin being a little warmer in still air, not enough to matter. Glass is another matter. Moving air across glass will make some difference. If one has proper window coverings in place, the difference will be small. If your RV has defects that allow air infiltration then if the wind blows in the right (wrong?) direction then it will matter but that's too specific a situation to generalize. There are some other minor considerations such as the water heater. If it isn't on and the wind is blowing just right, there might be an added amount of cold air circulation through the flame tube. Of no consequence to the comfort level, at least until the water heater freezes and one can't take a shower! In my case, with a well insulated rig and thanks to Mr Handy Foam in a can, no air infiltration to speak of, all the wind does is gently rock me to sleep. I've camped in blizzards on top of local mountains where the snow has been blowing horizontal and still been warm and comfortable inside the rig. John --- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com Cleveland, Occupied TN >>This entire thread about wind-chill is all very interesting but whether >>or not wind-chill is important to an RVer is really the question. If you [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > http://www.johngsbbq.com > Cleveland, Occupied TN I disagree with all of your theories, tell you why. In a structure that is to be heated and cooled by an air conditioner/ furnace, a heat gain and loss study is done. It depends on the R factor insulation contained in the walls, floor and ceiling. You loose or gain temperature mostly through the windows. Never the less the structure has transfered a certain amount of temperature to the outer surface and if the wind blows that transfered air away, more replaces it, resulting in more temperature loss. This to me is considered a wind chill factor. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME >>> This entire thread about wind-chill is all very interesting but >>> whether or not wind-chill is important to an RVer is really the [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > that transfered air away, more replaces it, resulting in more > temperature loss. This to me is considered a wind chill factor. Heat loss factor. Wind Chill has a specific definition dealing with skin temperature. Period. LZ >>This entire thread about wind-chill is all very interesting but >>whether [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > John I'm no expert in this but if there were no external losses then once heated, the inside of the RV would not need to be continually heated, i.e., once up to temp, you could turn off the heater and all would be well. We all know that's not the case. I am one of those people who have single pane windows in my RV. My RV cools faster than those that have double pane windows. My heater is going off and on all the time when it's cold out. If the wind blows, the windows and body of the RV get robbed of heat faster. By how much, I have no idea. The original concept of wind-chill was determined by how fast a can of water cooled in the wind. That is, an inanimate object was affected by the wind and cooled faster due to it this wind(-chill). Even though not intended to be a guide for inanimate objects, wind-chill does have some effect on them otherwise you couldn't use an inanimate object to determine the wind-chill. It may not be a one-to-one effect but the effect is still there. Maybe using the name wind-chill is not correct when referring to it. How about wind-effect when referring to inanimate objects which have a temp above the real temperature. Ben >>>This entire thread about wind-chill is all very interesting but >>>whether [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > Ben I would say considering the original name was wind chill of the original method of measuring why not let them call their new method a new name. Maybe skin chill or ear feel or nose drip, what ever. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME > This entire thread about wind-chill is all very interesting but whether > or not wind-chill is important to an RVer is really the question. If you [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > inside the RV, the lower the wind-chill, the more energy needed to > maintain the heat inside. Wind Chill, strictly defined, is how moving air affects exposed flesh as exposed to still air. You'll have more air leaking around windows and such but "wind chill" won't affect the temperature of the skin of a trailer. Evaporative cooling has has some similarities with wind chill but they really are two different categories of cooling. LZ >>You didn't agree with the OP's statement regarding wind chill reaching >>-50 to -75. You were incorrect as it certainly does appear to have been [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Theory and conjecture; you must have missed the estimated WAG of 50 to > 70. Besides wind chill has no effect on inanimate object. I guess that means I am not an inanimate object! ;-) SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME > Besides wind chill has no effect on inanimate object. You know- I have always understood this as "common wisdom", and yet it makes me wonder how a sling psychrometer works. Definition: "An instrument designed to measure dew point and relative humidity, consisting of two thermometers (one dry bulb and one wet bulb). The dew point and humidity levels are determined by drying the wet bulb (either by fanning or whirling the instrument) and comparing the difference between the wet and dry bulbs with preexisting calculations." IOW- the effect of "wind chill" on an inanimate object is used to determine the relative humidity. SignatureChris Bryant http://bryantrv.com >Chris Bryant <bounces@bryantrv.com> wrote: >> Besides wind chill has no effect on inanimate object. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >IOW- the effect of "wind chill" on an inanimate object is used to >determine the relative humidity. I think the answer is that there is more to "wind chill" than cooling by evaporation. Wind chill is the cooling effect of moving cold air over a warm body. There are two factors that contribute to wind chill: increased heat transfer from the circulation of cold air, and cooling from evaporation. If an inanimate object is wet or is heated internally, there would be a "wind chill" effect on that object. A sling psychrometer uses only the cooling effect of evaporation to measure relative humidity, since it is already at ambient temperature. SignatureDD Unless, of course, the motorhome is warmer than the outside air. That would only happen in the winter. Steve > Unfortunately, wind chill is irrelevant and meaningless, with sufficient > wind velocity at the freezing point you could have any wind chill, where > in > actuality the temperature remains at freezing point. > Unless, of course, the motorhome is warmer than the outside air. That > would only happen in the winter. > > Steve Wind velocity only acts as accelerant; any type of mass can only cool to actual temperature. >> Unfortunately, wind chill is irrelevant and meaningless, with sufficient >> wind velocity at the freezing point you could have any wind chill, where >> in >> actuality the temperature remains at freezing point. > Wind velocity only acts as accelerant; any type of mass can only cool to > actual temperature. This will be news to the wet bulb thermometer and those using evaporative coolers. LZ >> Wind velocity only acts as accelerant; any type of mass can only cool to >> actual temperature. > > This will be news to the wet bulb thermometer and those using evaporative > coolers. > LZ hah- you beat me to it. SignatureChris Bryant http://bryantrv.com The two are totally unrelated. Wind chill is an attempt to quantify the effect wind has on the perception of temperature by humans. It does not take humidity into account. The wind chill would be the same whether the RH was 0 or 100%. The sling pyschrometer or swamp cooler have slightly different dependencies on humidity. A decent idea when conceived, wind chill has turned into little more than something the TV weather idiots can scream about. Being a subjective scale, it has little to do with science. John >>> Wind velocity only acts as accelerant; any type of mass can only cool to >>> actual temperature. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >hah- you beat me to it. --- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com Cleveland, Occupied TN > The two are totally unrelated. Wind chill is an attempt to quantify > the effect wind has on the perception of temperature by humans. It [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > http://www.johngsbbq.com > Cleveland, Occupied TN John!, John!, JOHN you are over your head on this one. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME >> The two are totally unrelated. Wind chill is an attempt to quantify >> the effect wind has on the perception of temperature by humans. It [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> Cleveland, Occupied TN > John!, John!, JOHN you are over your head on this one. No he's not. http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/windchill/index.shtml From: http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/windchill/windchillglossary.shtml 13. Does humidity or being near a large water body affect on wind chill? When we tested the new Wind Chill Temperature Index (WCTI), our researchers applied the new index to 12 test subjects. The results of the tests showed that relative humidity was an insignificant weather parameter, less than one degree at worst. To simplify the calculation, relative humidity was left out of the formula. We did research a wet wind chill or blowing water spray. This research was to simulate a person near a body of water or a mariner. These findings are being finalized and may be incorporated for the winter season 2003-2004. Signature"Everyday I beat my own previous record for number of consecutive days I have stayed alive." http://www.bobhatch.com http://www.tdsrvresort.com >>>The two are totally unrelated. Wind chill is an attempt to quantify >>>the effect wind has on the perception of temperature by humans. It [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > to simulate a person near a body of water or a mariner. These findings are > being finalized and may be incorporated for the winter season 2003-2004. They tested seeding the clouds too, that proved flawed as well. If humidity does not have any thing to do with wind chill why cant you cool dry air? Why do they use swamp coolers in dry areas? SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME >>>>The two are totally unrelated. Wind chill is an attempt to quantify >>>>the effect wind has on the perception of temperature by humans. It [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >humidity does not have any thing to do with wind chill why cant you >cool dry air? Why do they use swamp coolers in dry areas? To be absolutely accurate, relative humidity Does affect wind chill. But generally, most people who are concerned about wind chill factor only care when the numbers are the numbers are below 20F, and mostly concerned when the number is minus anything F. At these temperatures, the difference between 100% Rh and 0% Rh is almost nil as far as perceived (human skin) temperature feels. zero >>>>>The two are totally unrelated. Wind chill is an attempt to quantify >>>>>the effect wind has on the perception of temperature by humans. It [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > zero I agree with you, except you missed my numbers, +50 is where I head in or south. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME >> -big snip- >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I agree with you, except you missed my numbers, +50 is where I head >in or south. When the degree F's go up, if you need a place to boondock, feel free to email me. zip 49449 WWTV forecaster used the "S" word in the forecast for 09/27/05 tonight, so this year sounds too cold already for you. Personally, I've found that no matter how cold it gets, I can always add more layers, and possibly face protection, and stay warm outdoors. Lived for four years on the edge of Death Valley (in Trona), and even going naked with a water spray on me didn't mean keeping cool. zero >To be absolutely accurate, relative humidity Does affect wind chill. To be absolutely accurate, humidity has no effect on Wind Chill (notice the capital letters, as Wind Chill is the proper name given to the model of perceived cold developed by the NWS) as was noted in an NWS quote earlier in this thread. >But generally, most people who are concerned about wind chill factor only >care when the numbers are the numbers are below 20F, and mostly >concerned when the number is minus anything F. > >At these temperatures, the difference between 100% Rh and 0% Rh is >almost nil as far as perceived (human skin) temperature feels. Based on notes in my journal that I've kept over the last several years because I'm interested in this topic, humidity DOES indeed have a large effect on perceived cold - but only under still conditions. I can be in mid-20s weather in my shirt sleeves and be comfortable when the humidity is high, such as immediately after fresh snow. At the same temperature and low humidity I need a rather hefty jacket to be comfortable. Once the air starts moving, humidity has little to no effect on my comfort. The NWS has noticed the same thing. John --- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com Cleveland, Occupied TN > They tested seeding the clouds too, that proved flawed as well. If > humidity does not have any thing to do with wind chill why cant you > cool dry air? What? Why do they use swamp coolers in dry areas? I don't know. In Arizona I use my roof AC's. All the park models in the park use AC's. When I drive to Southern Idaho, I use my roof AC's. In Jackpot, NV and Las Vegas, I use my roof AC's. In the high desert country around Carlsbad, I used my roof AC's. In desert country around Montana and Wyoming, I used my roof AC's. The rig was cooled in every situation. What did I do wrong? Signature"Everyday I beat my own previous record for number of consecutive days I have stayed alive." http://www.bobhatch.com http://www.tdsrvresort.com > What? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Wyoming, I used my roof AC's. The rig was cooled in every situation. What > did I do wrong? "Swamp Coolers" will produce cool air for a fraction of the cost of a refrigerated type air conditioner since there is no compressor to drive. But they only work in lower humidity. In Ajo the folks use the swamp coolers until the monsoon begins and the high humidity makes them useless. Then the electric bill for cooling jumps from $80/mo to $250/mo. LZ > "Swamp Coolers" will produce cool air for a fraction of the cost of a > refrigerated type air conditioner since there is no compressor to > drive. But they only work in lower humidity. In Ajo the folks use > the swamp coolers until the monsoon begins and the high humidity makes > them useless. Then the electric bill for cooling jumps from $80/mo > to $250/mo. LZ But, you can cool dry air. It just costs more. :-) I used a swamp cooler when I worked in the desert of Idaho, and lived in a 50 foot trailer house. When I moved to the real house on the ranch, with a window AC, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. Signature"Everyday I beat my own previous record for number of consecutive days I have stayed alive." http://www.bobhatch.com http://www.tdsrvresort.com >> The two are totally unrelated. Wind chill is an attempt to quantify >> the effect wind has on the perception of temperature by humans. It [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > John!, John!, JOHN you are over your head on this one. any type of mass can only cool to actual temperature. Not related to the wind chill effect but the above statement certainly would be news to the wet bulb thermometer and the Lister Bag. LZ > The two are totally unrelated. Wind chill is an attempt to quantify the > effect wind has on the perception of temperature by humans. It does not > take humidity into account. The wind chill would be the same whether the > RH was 0 or 100%. The sling pyschrometer or swamp cooler have slightly > different dependencies on humidity. You are, of course, correct. I find that wind chill does not have anything to do with relative humidity. > A decent idea when conceived, wind chill has turned into little more > than something the TV weather idiots can scream about. Being a > subjective scale, it has little to do with science. The funny part is I had a high school friend whose father was one of those who first formulated the wind chill chart (he was a Canadian). Of course- down here the TV weather people are enraptured by the "heat index"- temperature is 95°, but with the heat index, it feels like 178°. SignatureChris Bryant http://bryantrv.com >The funny part is I had a high school friend whose father was one of those >who first formulated the wind chill chart (he was a Canadian). FWIW... The wind chill formula used by both Environment Canada and the National Weather service of the US evolved from the original Siple-Passel Equation and was further modified by an internet wrorkshop hosted by Randall Osczevski of Canada's DCIEM and Maurice Bluestein of Purdue University in Indiana. In the fall of 2000 the Office of the (United States) Federal Coordinator of Meteorology formed the Joint Action Group for Thermal Indices (JAG/TI), with participation from both the USA and Canada. The JAG/TI recommended that a new wind chill index be developed based on the work of Randall Osczevski and Maurice Bluestein. The new index has been validated in clinical trials with human volunteers held in Toronto in June 2001. This index is expected to be much closer to what people actually experience when exposed to wind and low temperatures. David "The Hamster" Malone www.hamstertales.com >> Wind velocity only acts as accelerant; any type of mass can only cool to >> actual temperature. > > This will be news to the wet bulb thermometer and those using evaporative > coolers. > LZ Research has shown that the effects of humidity is insignificant and therefore are omitted in wind chill calculations, unlike the variables of dim bulbs that have the tendency to skew results, and must be closely monitored. >>>Wind velocity only acts as accelerant; any type of mass can only cool to >>>actual temperature. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > monitored. > ; any type of mass can only cool to >>>actual temperature. Nevertheless, your statement above is incorrect when applied to the objects I mentioned. LZ >>> This will be news to the wet bulb thermometer and those using >>> evaporative coolers. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > objects I mentioned. > LZ LZ, don't those gismos depend on evaporation, not the effect of air blowing over them? Cliff Signature"The more you know, the less often you get killed!" Our Web Page http://www.cj-and-m.com >>; any type of mass can only cool to >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > over them? > Cliff The air moving over them speeds the evaporation and is needed to give the coolest reading. Normally more than one wet-bulb reading is taken and the average reading is used. This is needed for an accurate dew point. LZ > Nevertheless, your statement above is incorrect when applied to the > objects I mentioned. > LZ Nevermind :-) ... you answered my post further down this thread! Cliff - gott start reading the whole thread! Signature"The more you know, the less often you get killed!" Our Web Page http://www.cj-and-m.com The radiant >heaters or for that matter any space heater will keep you warm but they >will not prevent a freeze up here in Ferndale. The NE wind freezes you >up sideways through the walls even if you have all your access doors >open and it's a +70 inside. Something is very contradictory here...if it is 70° inside there will be no freeze up except possibly holding tanks/valves which can be protected with the pink stuff. You seem a bit prone to exaggeration Terry! SignaturePegleg U.S. Navy Retired Support Our Troops All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope. Sir Winston Churchill > The radiant > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > no freeze up except possibly holding tanks/valves which can be protected > with the pink stuff. You seem a bit prone to exaggeration Terry! You must live in the south. In Michigan, it's common for house pipes to freeze inside cabinets, even when the house is heated to 72 degrees. Clearly, you don't know what cold weather is. Lon > The radiant > >heaters or for that matter any space heater will keep you warm but they [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > U.S. Navy Retired > Support Our Troops Hey Brian, Nope, no exaggeration, sorry about that. When you are full timing or your system is primed, your not using the pink stuff and your water lines will freeze through the walls of your RV or building and not from underneath. You can either accept that or not, it is your choice. You are new to the area that I grew up in and still live in, ask around town if you don't believe me. While you are at it, ask about the arctic blasts we had in 1990 & 1991 (bite me Herbert, LOL). Terry -- Crayfishing Made Easy World's Leader in Crayfish Traps & Crab Snares Everyone Is Doing It. Are You? http://www.terrybullard.com/CrawfishMain.html Don't think he's heard about those Northeasters that blow out of Canada either. He will get by on some of the years but there will be one that will get him sooner or later. Will never forget heading out the NW road one year after a "blast" and seeing units in a mobile home park with snow stacked on the leeward side from the roof to the ground at about a 45 degree angle!!!!! Temp was in the range of 10 degrees and blowing like "H"..... SignatureGoat For Reply, Post to Group Only Pegleg wrote: > On 25 Sep 2005 06:39:41 -0700, "CMaster" <TerryBullard@TerryBullard.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > U.S. Navy Retired > Support Our Troops Hey Brian, Nope, no exaggeration, sorry about that. When you are full timing or your system is primed, your not using the pink stuff and your water lines will freeze through the walls of your RV or building and not from underneath. You can either accept that or not, it is your choice. You are new to the area that I grew up in and still live in, ask around town if you don't believe me. While you are at it, ask about the arctic blasts we had in 1990 & 1991 (bite me Herbert, LOL). Terry -- Crayfishing Made Easy World's Leader in Crayfish Traps & Crab Snares Everyone Is Doing It. Are You? http://www.terrybullard.com/CrawfishMain.html >Don't think he's heard about those Northeasters that blow out of Canada >either. He will get by on some of the years but there will be one that will >get him sooner or later. Yes...I have heard of them and I have respect for them. During my life I have endured some horrendous weather in different parts of the world that most of you will never see or experience. I will deal with the weather when it comes as I always have...and successfully at that! Thanks for your input. SignaturePegleg U.S. Navy Retired Support Our Troops All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope. Sir Winston Churchill blasts we had in 1990 & 1991 (bite me Herbert, LOL). Terry -- Nah you possibly could have gangrene from frostbite. Herbert > Something is very contradictory here...if it is 70° inside there will be > no freeze up except possibly holding tanks/valves which can be protected > with the pink stuff. You seem a bit prone to exaggeration Terry! At 17 below zero with some wind you'll find that 70 might not do it. Things will still freeze if they are near the walls. Many brands, even some quite expensive, haven't a clue what happens in the winter. A dead give away are pipes near exterior walls. Avoid those brands! Steve www.wolfswords.com under the motorhome link >The radiant >>heaters or for that matter any space heater will keep you warm but they [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >no freeze up except possibly holding tanks/valves which can be protected >with the pink stuff. You seem a bit prone to exaggeration Terry! No, not at all. In that kind of weather, the room can be at 70 degrees while the walls inside cabinets are far below freezing. water tubing in contact with those walls and floors will freeze. It doesn't take 70 below either. Single digit weather is more than enough for many rigs. Since my rig's frame is made of aluminum (very thermally conductive), one of the first things I did to get ready for cold weather camping was to lift the water tubing away from the frame and insulate it with that black foam water line insulation. I have seen frost on the exposed frame bulkheads in my rig and I've never had the opportunity to camp in below zero weather. John --- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com Cleveland, Occupied TN >No, not at all. In that kind of weather, the room can be at 70 >degrees while the walls inside cabinets are far below freezing. water [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >http://www.johngsbbq.com >Cleveland, Occupied TN One of the biggest reasons you can freeze pipes in a heated rv is the fact the heated air is rising and trying to get out. This creates a lower pressure where the outside air is trying to equalize. So any penetration or seam (many times by pipes) will be much colder than the rest of the rv. Tom > Hi Brian, > I've lived in Ferndale for the past 20 years and previously in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > snow in early July at Portal Way exits on I-5 causing a massive pile > up. Still, it's a great place to live. Chill factor may have been that low, but according to theweatherchannel.com http://tinyurl.com/9b5bz The record low for Ferndale, WA, is -2 in January and February of 1950. With an average low of 32 in January and 33 in December. Signature"Everyday I beat my own previous record for number of consecutive days I have stayed alive." http://www.bobhatch.com http://www.tdsrvresort.com >> Hi Brian, >> I've lived in Ferndale for the past 20 years and previously in [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > The record low for Ferndale, WA, is -2 in January and February of 1950. > With an average low of 32 in January and 33 in December. And if indeed both record low and wind velocity of 104 mph had occurred simultaneously the estimated wind chill would have been approximately -40. > And if indeed both record low and wind velocity of 104 mph had > occurred simultaneously the estimated wind chill would have been > approximately -40. Well, there ya go. :-) Signature"Everyday I beat my own previous record for number of consecutive days I have stayed alive." http://www.bobhatch.com http://www.tdsrvresort.com > > I'm in NW Washington State (Ferndale)...last winter we had about ten > > days of 15° nights in Jan but I fully winterized the plumbing. Figure I [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Everyone Is Doing It. Are You? > http://www.terrybullard.com/CrawfishMain.html You're joking of course. The wind typically blows from the SW to the NE all year across Puget Sound. Hence onshore flow and the ever historical winter *"convergence zone" - where the weather swirls clockwise when it is faced with a cold front hitting from the NW with the SW flowing warmer air. *That's the reason for the terrific snow levels North of Seattle. Average temperature has classically been 37*F all my 60+ years. Average low temperature in winter is 27*F. Ask Steve Pool at KOMO Channel 4 to profess the validity of minus 50*F wind chill temps. And don't think that Steve can provide you with that figure at any point in time... much less in 1990 as it is NOT so. The roughest weather in the 1990s that we had at home was the winter of 1992-1993. You've been fishing a long time, eh? :) Lindakay >You're joking of course. >The wind typically blows from the SW to the NE all year across Puget [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >You've been fishing a long time, eh? :) Although I think Terry is not completely accurate you are way off here. Maybe the wind is sw to ne where you are but in the Ferndale area we frequently receive very strong winds from the NE coming out of the Frazer Valley in British Columbia...this is what he is referring to. These occur, although less frequently, even in warmer months. In slightly less than two years here we have learned that Seattle TV Station weather forecasts are frequently so far off for our area that we pay little attention to them anymore Last winter (a mild winter here) we had in the neighborhood of ten consecutive days with a low of 15° and many days in the low 20° range. SignaturePegleg U.S. Navy Retired Support Our Troops All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope. Sir Winston Churchill > >You're joking of course. > >The wind typically blows from the SW to the NE all year across Puget [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope. > Sir Winston Churchill Well - tell you what. I'm going to be at home there soon - for the next 60 years anyway... :) I'll be around the University lots, so will check what's happened since 1990. I find it difficult to believe that *minus* 50F. You believe you're right and I don't believe you're wrong either. However, I also know it's not that cold there most of the time and evidently it didn't happen when I was there - except for the winter of '92-'93 when there were ice chunks everywhere on the roads and water under the ice chunks and snow on top of the ice chunks. I just hope this winter isn't as wet. (boy is that alot to ask, hmm??) :) Later. Lindakay Hi...Your writing is a bit difficult to follow... >Well - tell you what. I'm going to be at home there soon - for the >next 60 years anyway... :) Not sure what this means...where is "at home there"? >I'll be around the University lots, so will check what's happened since >1990. I find it difficult to believe that *minus* 50F. >You believe you're right and I don't believe you're wrong either. Okay. >However, I also know it's not that cold there.. .Where is there? ...most of the time and >evidently it didn't happen when I was there - except for the winter of >'92-'93 when there were ice chunks everywhere on the roads and water >under the ice chunks and snow on top of the ice chunks. I just hope >this winter isn't as wet. (boy is that alot to ask, hmm??) :) SignaturePegleg U.S. Navy Retired Support Our Troops All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope. Sir Winston Churchill > In slightly less than two years here we have learned that Seattle TV > Station weather forecasts are frequently so far off for our area that we > pay little attention to them anymore Last winter (a mild winter here) > we had in the neighborhood of ten consecutive days with a low of 15° and > many days in the low 20° range. Local factors (especially river valleys) can have far different weather than the surrounding higher ground. In Spain the Ebro river valley would have weeks of dreary low clouds and drizzle while the surrounding hills had sunshine and temperatures in the 60s. The temperature inversion trapped the cold air, moisture and pollutants in the valley and only a good cold front would blow it out and let the process start over. In Germany, Straubing on the Danube would have ice fog for many days while the surrounding hills were sunny. People who didn't have the time or a car to leave the city had no idea that sunshine was a 20 minute drive away. LZ >> In slightly less than two years here we have learned that Seattle TV >> Station weather forecasts are frequently so far off for our area [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > idea that sunshine was a 20 minute drive away. > LZ As an exercise, try forcasting the daily weather for Knoxville, TN. Cumberland Plateau to the West, Smoky Mountains to the East, and the Tennessee River running right thru town. Several years ago, a DJ on WIVK, the local radio station, would flip a coin every morning after the weather report ... Heads, it would rain/snow (depending on time,) Tails, it would be warm/dry ... after 30 days, his method had a better accuracy rating than the Nat. Weather Service < LOL > Cliff - who uses a Cherokee Weather Rock ... 100% accurate, so far. Signature"The more you know, the less often you get killed!" Our Web Page http://www.cj-and-m.com >I want to keep our 24 foot class "C" ready to go during the winter. > Plan on getting a space heater to use and would like to know what type [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Brian Brian, I've used various electric heaters of the "oil-filled radiator" type for 2 decades in various RV's without any problems. I currently have two, and leave one in the main cabin and one in the "basement", both set for about 45-50 degrees. With this type of heater, there are no exposed heating elements, and they have a "tip-over" switch which turns them off should they knocked on their sides. Both of my heaters have |
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