Re: Times: Rail travellers' guide to becoming a legal fare dodger

... mostly based on fiction.

Yes.

But Jeremy Clarkson decides his own rules...

If I was going to travel by high speed train to the south of France,
had luggage, and the local bus only ran hourly, I'd take a taxi to the
station.... and I would still not need to break the speed limits to
beat him.

JohnK

As Jeremy Clarkson keeps proving, the train lost the competition
long ago, even in long distance continental travel.

Sorry but how the ticketing system was in 1989 was better than the myriad of
fares that we have now. No doubt you will flag up the 'consumer choice'
arguement but that is now 'consumer confusion'. So the whole idea of
Privatisation was to turn the whole railway system into an advance purchase
only system. Maybe they should try it with local buses as well. The
convienience of the train is to go somewhere and then not feel fixed that
you've got to come back at a certain time of day.

If the railway is to compete with the car then there is no way that APEX
type fares are going to tempt people out of their cars, because people don't
like being restricted like that.

Of course the reason why TOCs promote cheap advance tickets  alot is because
of the fact that they get a larger 'cut' of the revenue from them!!!!

Tim

Why are you assuming that seats have to be reserved? Supposing
Merseyrail simply said "Buy your ticket more than three days ahead and
we'll give you a quid off" in order to level out demand at booking
offices. Would that be such a travesty? Do you also object to the way
they give a discount to people who pay for a week, a month or a year's
travel in advance?

"Basic principle" is not the same as "What I'm used to"

Why? And "because that's how it was in 1989" is not a good answer.

Ian

Because it's a stupid idea. I can just see the guards (sorry conductors)
going through a 508 unit putting Reservation labels on seats in the 5 minute
turnaound at Chester/West Kirby/ New Brighton etc!!! You really have been
hitting that Christmas Brandy too much! Have we really come this far since
privatisation where some of the basic principals of rail travel are being
eroded.

Pay on the day is a STANDARD service. Advance purchased tickets should be
available but only as a special bonus.

Tim

Why not?

Ian

So write my local TOC is Merseyrail. Do you think I they should offer a
service to book in advance in case I want to go shopping in Liverpool next
Thursday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim

Yes, being able to get on a train immediately and go where you want is
a premium service.  I can't really see in what way it's otherwise?
The flexibility to take any train you want in the next 4 days, is a
big premium service over taking a specific train in that time period,
and it's sensible to charge extra for that privilige.

Sorry, I thought the purpose of a train was to get people (or goods)
from station 1 to station 2, it's certainly not a public service.

Jim.

Bollocks!!! So you think that the railways should be like airlines with
premium fares for walk on passengers? Perhaps you've forgotten the purpose
of the railways (as a public service)

Tim

having cheap walk on fares at the expense of advance purchase isn't
fair.  Being able to travel immediately is a service that should be
paid for.

You said above that A-C was due to an increased discount, so the only
way your new assertion could be true was if the profits increased, now
that could happen, except of course there's a fares regulator in
theory preventing this...

Jim.

Clerks may be good enough to do it for you but they are not obliged to. This
is for a very good reason. Is is simple enough to split a short journey, but
for longer journeys the combinations increase almost exponentially. It
becomes impractical to offer every possible combination.

Virgin make much of their cheap fares, but the quotas can be incredibly
restrictive. Surely it is better to offer good value walk-on fares,
concentrating on simple time restrictions to satisfy yield management
issues.

It wouldn't though. It would just result in the A to C fare becoming equal
to the existing A to B fare plus the B to C fare.

Roger

http://rpm-railpics.fotopic.net/
http://therailwaystationgallery.fotopic.net/
http://therailticketgallery.fotopic.net/

Yep it would be ridiculous, I have had clerks tell me when it's
cheaper to buy a combination ticket, or a ticket beyond the
destination I really want.

Could you explain?

but it will also reduce the A-B to fares, giving those people who
don't know about the A-C ticket better off, the result farer as each
ticket gets similar subsidies...

Jim.

<Big snip>

OK, the fares structure *is* complicated, and I do think the matter will
come to a head at some point, but in the intrerests of balance I should make
the following points:

1. IT would be totally impossible for clerks to offer all the fares between
two stations, plus all the *combinations* of fares between those stations.
If you want ticket office queues to slow down by a factor of about 400% then
push for all combinations of fares to be made available. Personally, I don't
think it is unreasonable for these combination fares to be available only to
those in the know.

2. As a general rule a genuinely "fair" fare policy should not rely on all
the bargain fares being advanced purchase. For example compare and contrast
Virgin fare policy with Chiltern policy.

3. When you have a situation where the fare from A to C is less than the
fare from A to B that is usually because the A to C fare has received an
increased discount. Evening out the fares will only result in the A to C
fare being increased.

4. Similarly, where A to B plus B to C fares come out cheaper than an A to C
fare it may be because the more local journeys have been kept low to
increase this specific market. The longer distance journey, though more
expensive reflects the actual fare and is probably well enough used to not
requre any discounting. In short, the cheaper local fares might be keeping
the smaller stations alive.

I'm not saying the present fare amomalies are a good thing, but they are not
necessarily a result of pure daftness as seems to be suggested by many
posters.

Roger

http://rpm-railpics.fotopic.net/
http://therailwaystationgallery.fotopic.net/
http://therailticketgallery.fotopic.net/

The Times
December 27, 2004

Rail travellers' guide to becoming a legal fare dodger
By Ben Webster

With price rises ahead, it is important for passengers to be more aware of
good-value deals

THOUSANDS of rail passengers pay too much for their journeys because train
companies do not tell them about the cheapest tickets available. Rail fares
have become so complex that only those well-versed in the rules and
regulations can be reasonably sure of getting the best deal. Passengers have
to know to ask for a specific ticket or combination of tickets because train
companies are not obliged to advise them of the cheapest fare. One railway
enthusiast runs seminars to teach travellers how to play the system to avoid
paying over the odds.

The secrets of obtaining a bargain on the railways will become more relevant
from January 2, when fares will increase by an average of 4 per cent.
Further rises are likely because the Government is considering abolishing
the price cap on Saver tickets.

One of the simplest tricks, which saves money on many routes, is to ask for
two return tickets that combine to form a whole journey. A passenger
starting out at Peterborough station and asking for a day return to
Birmingham will be sold a Saver return for £32.10. However, if he asked for
a cheap day return to Melton Mowbray for £6.20 and another from Melton
Mowbray to Birmingham for £9.60, the total would be £15.80, less than half
the amount requested by the clerk at Peterborough.

Another method is to buy a Network Card for £20, with which a passenger at
Weymouth could buy a return to King¹s Lynn for £50.25 instead of the usual
price of £76.10 ‹ making a saving of £5.85. The passenger could then use the
card for the next year to get one third off all his journeys in the South
East.

It is also possible to save hundreds of pounds a year by buying a season
ticket that is never used for the stations it covers.

Alex Nelson, who runs a rail travel agency in Chester-le-Street, Co Durham,
has a season ticket that covers the route between Ryde Esplanade and Ryde St
Johns on the Isle of Wight. The two stations are at opposite ends of the
town, and the season ticket is the cheapest in Britain at £104 a year.

Mr Nelson lives more than 300 miles from the Isle of Wight but uses the
ticket on his regular trips to London.

The ticket, as with all season tickets, entitles him to a one-third discount
within the Network South East area, which stretches from Exeter to King¹s
Lynn and from Worcester to Hastings. The season ticket also allows him to
upgrade to first class for only £3.

He has used his ticket on the Isle of Wight only once in four years but
saves £100 a year on other journeys.

Mr Nelson has uncovered many other money-saving dodges and holds ticketing
masterclasses with voluntary groups, including the Women¹s Institute and
rotary clubs.

Barry Doe, a public transport consultant, said that most of the anomalies
had emerged since the railways were privatised. ³Some train companies have
been so greedy in pushing up fares that they can hardly complain if people
play the system to get a cheaper ticket,² he said. ³In British Rail days,
fare rises were done across the system and everything was dovetailed so that
you didn¹t get these anomalies.

"The system would be much fairer and easier to understand if the Strategic
Rail Authority set the fares centrally rather than giving the companies
freedom to charge what they like."

The Rail Passengers Council plans to issue bulletins to passengers advising
them how to avoid paying too much. Anthony Smith, the council¹s director,
said: ³The fares system is ridiculously complicated and customers need to be
very well- informed to negotiate it.

"If you are doing anything more complicated than buying a simple point to
point return then the different options and restrictions can be
bewildering."

The Association of Train Operating Companies said that ticket clerks did not
always advise passengers of the cheapest deal because it would take too
long. A spokeswoman said: "People are perfectly within their rights to ask
for those tickets if they want to. It¹s possible in some circumstances they
are going to get a cheaper fare."
   

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,170-1416530,00.html